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<<The way it has been described is that attaining any circles post-150 will be essentially pointless - except as a "badge of honour". >>
But...it's even more pointless now because it's not even possible. Keep in mind that the entire concept of any advancement "post-150" is tentative, at best. The fact it's being considered, no matter how much or little meat is on the bone besides "bragging rights", should be a positive thing.
Solomon
>> But it sounds like your real concern is the TDPs... in which case since we dont really know, we... cant really know, yet.
I think my real concern is ... Damn i just wanna play the game i already love, but im confused as hell about what the changes really mean for my Chars.
And as for TDP Ho's .. who knows ... from what Camaaron said we get credit if we fall short and have to pay it back on some kinda TDP based Hire Purchase system.
I guess its time to stop worryin and wait n see.
Words Words Words .. in the end thats all it is
>I think my real concern is ... Damn i just wanna play the game i already love, but im confused as hell about what the changes really mean for my Chars.
Feel free to IM me at CaraamonDR, I'm happy to talk people through it.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Feel free to IM me at CaraamonDR, I'm happy to talk people through it.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>>Yeah, I don't particularly like this approach. The one that's winning in my mind is the one where if you do want to move ranks from mech to smithing, you'll lose any ranks you already have in smithing.
>>Yes. Don't move ranks into Engineering until the system you want in Engineering has been released. I strongly recommend doing this, and will not shoulder the blame if you transfer your ranks into a skill that doesn't have the system you want yet.
So if the discipline I want to use hasn't been released yet, I'd better not spend any time training that skill because not only will I waste time training it but I'll waste my bonus pool bits if I train that skill at all. At the same time I'd better not train any other crafting skill because it might turn out that I really don't like that discipline after all once it has been released and want to move my mech ranks into a different crafting skill.
This sounds unfun.
>>Yes. Don't move ranks into Engineering until the system you want in Engineering has been released. I strongly recommend doing this, and will not shoulder the blame if you transfer your ranks into a skill that doesn't have the system you want yet.
So if the discipline I want to use hasn't been released yet, I'd better not spend any time training that skill because not only will I waste time training it but I'll waste my bonus pool bits if I train that skill at all. At the same time I'd better not train any other crafting skill because it might turn out that I really don't like that discipline after all once it has been released and want to move my mech ranks into a different crafting skill.
This sounds unfun.
When tinkering with the magic calcs, please do consider a more "generalist" option for those who wouldn't otherwise be hurt by the nth magic problem Socharis pointed out earlier.
It would be very much appreciated, coming from a magic user who strives to keep his magic ranks fairly even :)
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
It would be very much appreciated, coming from a magic user who strives to keep his magic ranks fairly even :)
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
>>So if the discipline I want to use hasn't been released yet, I'd better not spend any time training that skill because not only will I waste time training it but I'll waste my bonus pool bits if I train that skill at all. At the same time I'd better not train any other crafting skill because it might turn out that I really don't like that discipline after all once it has been released and want to move my mech ranks into a different crafting skill.
Yeah I gotta say, I'm like the games biggest fan when it comes to just about everything 3.0...
Maybe Im stupid, maybe I'm drunk, Maybe I'm a fanboy...
I aint worried about anything. the new reqs, the new magics, the combine, the bonus pools, new combat, I cannot wait, and I'm not looking at 3.0 Day One.. Im looking at 3.0 Day 500.
The peice-meal mech lore split is seriously the first thing that is starting to make me think that its really not a very good idea.
Altho I suppose by day 500 it'll all be worked out.
Yeah I gotta say, I'm like the games biggest fan when it comes to just about everything 3.0...
Maybe Im stupid, maybe I'm drunk, Maybe I'm a fanboy...
I aint worried about anything. the new reqs, the new magics, the combine, the bonus pools, new combat, I cannot wait, and I'm not looking at 3.0 Day One.. Im looking at 3.0 Day 500.
The peice-meal mech lore split is seriously the first thing that is starting to make me think that its really not a very good idea.
Altho I suppose by day 500 it'll all be worked out.
<<So if the discipline I want to use hasn't been released yet, I'd better not spend any time training that skill because not only will I waste time training it but I'll waste my bonus pool bits if I train that skill at all.>>
If a discipline has NOT been release you will NOT be able to train that skill OR move ranks into it.
I do see an interesting concern that you'd lose bonus pool points if say smithing gets zeroed out when you transfer mech lore ranks over. Wasting a bit of time is one thing, but wasting a double does of exp pulses is a bit punitive.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
If a discipline has NOT been release you will NOT be able to train that skill OR move ranks into it.
I do see an interesting concern that you'd lose bonus pool points if say smithing gets zeroed out when you transfer mech lore ranks over. Wasting a bit of time is one thing, but wasting a double does of exp pulses is a bit punitive.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Is the 1 absorbed from the our learning poll gets you 1 absotbed from the bonus pool cast in stone? While I disagree with not being able to instaltly apply my bonus pools where I wish, I see why you are not willing to do it. But, is 1 to 1 the best approach? How about for ever 1% you absorb you get 10 times that from the bonus pool or 5 times that or even 2 times that?
We did spend the time absorbing all the bits in the bonus pool once already. How about speeding up their absorbtion a bit? This will be most beneficial for skills starting at or near 0.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
We did spend the time absorbing all the bits in the bonus pool once already. How about speeding up their absorbtion a bit? This will be most beneficial for skills starting at or near 0.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
>>What it encourages is people saying "I can get to circle 175 but I have nothing to hunt then, make something to hunt".
People already complain about not having stuff to hunt post-150. I think in this case, the biggest thing that would really change is the number they use when they make the complaint.
Not that I really disagree with your reasoning here. I can see raising the circle cap giving more weight to the complaints.
If you do wind up raising the cap, I'd like to see the new circles continue to give ability/spell slots, but absolutely no TDPs from circling.
People already complain about not having stuff to hunt post-150. I think in this case, the biggest thing that would really change is the number they use when they make the complaint.
Not that I really disagree with your reasoning here. I can see raising the circle cap giving more weight to the complaints.
If you do wind up raising the cap, I'd like to see the new circles continue to give ability/spell slots, but absolutely no TDPs from circling.
>>Immediately turn off mech learning, but allow your mech ranks to be used in crafting until all of the crafting systems are live
As long as you turn off learning with the other crafting skills that are released, sure. Why is it fair that the 3 barbarians that are upset about forging get months to train their crafting skill while people waiting on alchemy or enchanting can't put any training towards their future skills. I mean sure, for those few barbarians that are really upset about this that's probably a great option since they'll be able to also way up the prices on their crafted goods.
Anyone that has ever done their best to make sure they train a character as efficiently as possible knows that spending loads of time in a forge training forging and then folding paper and then somewhere in there train combats realizes that it's not as serious as all 3 of you that are up in arms are making it out to be.
I think you're also forgetting that if you do this you also potentially shut off large groups of people that have lore and mech requirements for circling because they have no way to train their skills.
In short no, your best method would be far from best.
As long as you turn off learning with the other crafting skills that are released, sure. Why is it fair that the 3 barbarians that are upset about forging get months to train their crafting skill while people waiting on alchemy or enchanting can't put any training towards their future skills. I mean sure, for those few barbarians that are really upset about this that's probably a great option since they'll be able to also way up the prices on their crafted goods.
Anyone that has ever done their best to make sure they train a character as efficiently as possible knows that spending loads of time in a forge training forging and then folding paper and then somewhere in there train combats realizes that it's not as serious as all 3 of you that are up in arms are making it out to be.
I think you're also forgetting that if you do this you also potentially shut off large groups of people that have lore and mech requirements for circling because they have no way to train their skills.
In short no, your best method would be far from best.
I'm excited for 3.0 too. Mainly because it seems like the most rational decisions are being made, seriously, every call is getting thought out and checked. A lot of player base is almost 16 years old, I'm glad there is a dialog. It's a good game and most everyone wants it to stay that way. I'm also interested in streaking, which is 3.0.
- Buuwl
- Buuwl
Game play > short term experience concerns.
People have spent years getting their mech lore to wherever it is now. Out of respect for that effort, they should be given a reasonable unrestricted period to try out each of the crafting professions. I think that's the plan, but I'm still reading posts concerned about mech being too powerful for a few months. It won't be. People that don't convert mech won't have access to techs. They'll be gimped. People don't like being gimped. The techs should be ample motivation to switch over once people find what they like. If not, they'll still be forced to switch in a relatively brief window of time. Who cares if people are decent at multiple skills for a few months? It's not like the market will be flooded with superior quality items all of a sudden. Superior products require superior materials, which are not abundant to begin with. This supports turning on the learning for all skills at the same time rather than piecemeal. It has the advantage of avoiding any double dipping concerns of the piecemeal model.
If you're still dead set on piecemeal, I think you should be liberal with the mech learning during the transition. There are a lot of opportunities to permanently ruin our lore skill set as it is, we don't need a complicated system that functions one way if you have X ranks but differently if you have Y ranks. Or skills that suddenly reset if you transfer experience, wasting people's time and potentially EXP bits (more on EXP bits later). Have you guys done the math to determine what kind of "extra" skill gain someone would get from double dipping in the single transfer model? You have all the equations and estimated time for switch-over. Keeping in mind, the later the skill gets released, the less opportunity to double dip. Also keep in mind that the people will still have to spend time training both mech and the crafting skill so they won't be free ranks. Compare this to the magic split where you plan on handing out potentially thousands of ranks for zero effort (and the Lore primes could make a similar complaint: they never had the opportunity to train these skills, now they have to split up their existing skill and will be less good at "crafting" overall).
Have you thought about how people holding out for the last crafting skill, enchanting for example, will learn mech? As skills become active, the people waiting for their craft to become available will have fewer and fewer options. Potentially zero options for enchanting as every other mechanism would be turned off or switched to a different skill.
Finally, EXP bits. You guys are playing way too fast and loose with the EXP bits. People spent a long time training specific skills, often sacrificing time, resources, and enjoyment to develop them. This intentional effort is going to vanish. I don't think anyone wants bits to go somewhere they feel won't be useful. Simply waving your hands and saying, "Nah, that won't happen" isn't good enough. It will happen and it will put pressure on people to play in awkward ways to avoid wasting their bits. You see it in this thread already. We should have the option to flag skills as bonus bits eligible/ineligible. We should also have a way to monitor the flow of bonus EXP bits to make sure they are being applied appropriately. How awful would it be to have hundreds of ranks disappear and then find out months later you only got half the bits you should have? We've seen enough bugs, serious ones, go unnoticed for long periods of time that this is a real possibility, especially considering the speed and complexity of changes happening right now.
Avaya.
People have spent years getting their mech lore to wherever it is now. Out of respect for that effort, they should be given a reasonable unrestricted period to try out each of the crafting professions. I think that's the plan, but I'm still reading posts concerned about mech being too powerful for a few months. It won't be. People that don't convert mech won't have access to techs. They'll be gimped. People don't like being gimped. The techs should be ample motivation to switch over once people find what they like. If not, they'll still be forced to switch in a relatively brief window of time. Who cares if people are decent at multiple skills for a few months? It's not like the market will be flooded with superior quality items all of a sudden. Superior products require superior materials, which are not abundant to begin with. This supports turning on the learning for all skills at the same time rather than piecemeal. It has the advantage of avoiding any double dipping concerns of the piecemeal model.
If you're still dead set on piecemeal, I think you should be liberal with the mech learning during the transition. There are a lot of opportunities to permanently ruin our lore skill set as it is, we don't need a complicated system that functions one way if you have X ranks but differently if you have Y ranks. Or skills that suddenly reset if you transfer experience, wasting people's time and potentially EXP bits (more on EXP bits later). Have you guys done the math to determine what kind of "extra" skill gain someone would get from double dipping in the single transfer model? You have all the equations and estimated time for switch-over. Keeping in mind, the later the skill gets released, the less opportunity to double dip. Also keep in mind that the people will still have to spend time training both mech and the crafting skill so they won't be free ranks. Compare this to the magic split where you plan on handing out potentially thousands of ranks for zero effort (and the Lore primes could make a similar complaint: they never had the opportunity to train these skills, now they have to split up their existing skill and will be less good at "crafting" overall).
Have you thought about how people holding out for the last crafting skill, enchanting for example, will learn mech? As skills become active, the people waiting for their craft to become available will have fewer and fewer options. Potentially zero options for enchanting as every other mechanism would be turned off or switched to a different skill.
Finally, EXP bits. You guys are playing way too fast and loose with the EXP bits. People spent a long time training specific skills, often sacrificing time, resources, and enjoyment to develop them. This intentional effort is going to vanish. I don't think anyone wants bits to go somewhere they feel won't be useful. Simply waving your hands and saying, "Nah, that won't happen" isn't good enough. It will happen and it will put pressure on people to play in awkward ways to avoid wasting their bits. You see it in this thread already. We should have the option to flag skills as bonus bits eligible/ineligible. We should also have a way to monitor the flow of bonus EXP bits to make sure they are being applied appropriately. How awful would it be to have hundreds of ranks disappear and then find out months later you only got half the bits you should have? We've seen enough bugs, serious ones, go unnoticed for long periods of time that this is a real possibility, especially considering the speed and complexity of changes happening right now.
Avaya.
Mech
>>Staggered split
Leaving mech as the only crafting skill really isn't an option. The market is already getting flooded with superior products, and characters whose legacy rests on the crafting feats that they'd done have all been jammed together and made to be roughly the same. We've removed what made each discipline special with the idea that they'd have a specialized skill instead. Every day we wait to do the split is a day where people get frustrated with the blurring of the lines between crafting.
>>New crafting skills post-X3
I'm not at all opposed to this idea:
When Alchemy comes out, there's two weeks during the "preview" where people can try it out, and have their learned ranks added to their mech ranks if they decide to make the move. This lets people try the new skill out without fear of losing the ranks they gained during their trials.
>>Potentially zero options for enchanting as every other mechanism would be turned off or switched to a different skill.
I won't be switching off mechanisms that teach mech until ALL mech skills have been released.
>>Mech in general
I've been mulling this a bit, and I'm considering this approach for the split:
Same thing as before, where if you move your mech into a skill, it wipes that skill first EXCEPT it leaves the first 100 ranks. This gives people 100 ranks to decide if a skill is something they want to use, and lets them retain the ranks they earned that way. It does allow double dipping up to the first 100 ranks, which is a pretty insignificant value in the grand scheme of things. The main thing that it allows is for experimentation without commitment, which everybody knows is the best thing ever (yay college!).
Bonus Bits
>>I don't think anyone wants bits to go somewhere they feel won't be useful. Simply waving your hands and saying, "Nah, that won't happen" isn't good enough.
Again, I have yet to hear of a situation where people are training skills but don't want those ranks to be gained. It's not "Nah that won't happen", it's "I can't figure out what you're doing training a skill when you don't actually want those ranks". People aren't going to be able to assign their new ranks as they see fit because it's a wildly more disruptive change for everything to change AND for people to jump 20 circles at once.
>>We should also have a way to monitor the flow of bonus EXP bits to make sure they are being applied appropriately.
This idea is flawed at it's root. If you're asking for us to write code for you to be able to verify that our code works, you're subject to bugs in that code too.
>>How awful would it be to have hundreds of ranks disappear and then find out months later you only got half the bits you should have?
That's why we're testing it very thoroughly. We can't give you guys access to the code but trust me, I'm not taking this lightly. This is extremely unlikely to happen.
>We should have the option to flag skills as bonus bits eligible/ineligible.
This definitely won't happen. It's highly unlikely that you'll be able to dictate the flow of your bonus bits at all, but if you can, it would be one flag per skillset, not on a per-skill level.
>>Under the system I'm suggesting, you could instead say "You will not lose any experience you gained, as measured in normalized bits.
I don't think that's true, though, because you can't accurately calculate normalized bits in a meaningful way. You give up number of ranks earned, time spent on the action, and total number of bits in order to create a value that, while mathematically derived from those three values, doesn't have any tangible meaning to people.
"Plain Bits" are something that are easy enough to grasp without diving deep into the details of how the exp system works. It's pretty simple to understand that all of the experience that I earned to get to rank 500 in stalking will eventually be returned to me for free.
>You're transforming 500 rank bits (which are less valuable) into an equal number of 50 rank bits (which are more valuable).
Are they more valuable because there were fewer of them earned per unit time, so they cost more seconds to earn? If that's true, then the goal of normalized bits is to make the bonus bits you earn normalized to the amount of time they're saving you, right? So you can say "This pulse is at 50 ranks, so reduce me by some fraction of a pulse (if pulses are calculated at 100 ranks)."
So now you have a bucket of pulses of value P_100, and you reduce them by fractions or multiples (as necessary based on rank).
The problem I'm seeing is that this number is meaningless - It's not representative of the time a person's put into earning skills, nor is it an accurate count of the bits within each skill that got absorbed. It's some hybrid combination of the two, and I think it does a mediocre job of returning a good approximation of a player's time OR effort spent training their skills.
Skills
>>How about the resource collection system for enchanting? It seems like that might be a good place for Arcana, just as Foraging is used in mining.
When enchanting comes out, that doesn't sound like an unreasonable idea, but it won't be coming out as part of X3 I don't think.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>>Staggered split
Leaving mech as the only crafting skill really isn't an option. The market is already getting flooded with superior products, and characters whose legacy rests on the crafting feats that they'd done have all been jammed together and made to be roughly the same. We've removed what made each discipline special with the idea that they'd have a specialized skill instead. Every day we wait to do the split is a day where people get frustrated with the blurring of the lines between crafting.
>>New crafting skills post-X3
I'm not at all opposed to this idea:
When Alchemy comes out, there's two weeks during the "preview" where people can try it out, and have their learned ranks added to their mech ranks if they decide to make the move. This lets people try the new skill out without fear of losing the ranks they gained during their trials.
>>Potentially zero options for enchanting as every other mechanism would be turned off or switched to a different skill.
I won't be switching off mechanisms that teach mech until ALL mech skills have been released.
>>Mech in general
I've been mulling this a bit, and I'm considering this approach for the split:
Same thing as before, where if you move your mech into a skill, it wipes that skill first EXCEPT it leaves the first 100 ranks. This gives people 100 ranks to decide if a skill is something they want to use, and lets them retain the ranks they earned that way. It does allow double dipping up to the first 100 ranks, which is a pretty insignificant value in the grand scheme of things. The main thing that it allows is for experimentation without commitment, which everybody knows is the best thing ever (yay college!).
Bonus Bits
>>I don't think anyone wants bits to go somewhere they feel won't be useful. Simply waving your hands and saying, "Nah, that won't happen" isn't good enough.
Again, I have yet to hear of a situation where people are training skills but don't want those ranks to be gained. It's not "Nah that won't happen", it's "I can't figure out what you're doing training a skill when you don't actually want those ranks". People aren't going to be able to assign their new ranks as they see fit because it's a wildly more disruptive change for everything to change AND for people to jump 20 circles at once.
>>We should also have a way to monitor the flow of bonus EXP bits to make sure they are being applied appropriately.
This idea is flawed at it's root. If you're asking for us to write code for you to be able to verify that our code works, you're subject to bugs in that code too.
>>How awful would it be to have hundreds of ranks disappear and then find out months later you only got half the bits you should have?
That's why we're testing it very thoroughly. We can't give you guys access to the code but trust me, I'm not taking this lightly. This is extremely unlikely to happen.
>We should have the option to flag skills as bonus bits eligible/ineligible.
This definitely won't happen. It's highly unlikely that you'll be able to dictate the flow of your bonus bits at all, but if you can, it would be one flag per skillset, not on a per-skill level.
>>Under the system I'm suggesting, you could instead say "You will not lose any experience you gained, as measured in normalized bits.
I don't think that's true, though, because you can't accurately calculate normalized bits in a meaningful way. You give up number of ranks earned, time spent on the action, and total number of bits in order to create a value that, while mathematically derived from those three values, doesn't have any tangible meaning to people.
"Plain Bits" are something that are easy enough to grasp without diving deep into the details of how the exp system works. It's pretty simple to understand that all of the experience that I earned to get to rank 500 in stalking will eventually be returned to me for free.
>You're transforming 500 rank bits (which are less valuable) into an equal number of 50 rank bits (which are more valuable).
Are they more valuable because there were fewer of them earned per unit time, so they cost more seconds to earn? If that's true, then the goal of normalized bits is to make the bonus bits you earn normalized to the amount of time they're saving you, right? So you can say "This pulse is at 50 ranks, so reduce me by some fraction of a pulse (if pulses are calculated at 100 ranks)."
So now you have a bucket of pulses of value P_100, and you reduce them by fractions or multiples (as necessary based on rank).
The problem I'm seeing is that this number is meaningless - It's not representative of the time a person's put into earning skills, nor is it an accurate count of the bits within each skill that got absorbed. It's some hybrid combination of the two, and I think it does a mediocre job of returning a good approximation of a player's time OR effort spent training their skills.
Skills
>>How about the resource collection system for enchanting? It seems like that might be a good place for Arcana, just as Foraging is used in mining.
When enchanting comes out, that doesn't sound like an unreasonable idea, but it won't be coming out as part of X3 I don't think.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>>Same thing as before, where if you move your mech into a skill, it wipes that skill first EXCEPT it leaves the first 100 ranks. This gives people 100 ranks to decide if a skill is something they want to use, and lets them retain the ranks they earned that way. It does allow double dipping up to the first 100 ranks, which is a pretty insignificant value in the grand scheme of things.
Honestly, ALL 'double dipping' has insignificant (if not negative) value in the grand scheme of things. I really don't give a crap though since you also posted the following
>>I won't be switching off mechanisms that teach mech until ALL mech skills have been released.
As long as any attempt to pacify people paranoid about double dipping experience involves leaving Mech Lore training on until Alchemy/Enchanting are out, it's all cool with me
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Apu
Honestly, ALL 'double dipping' has insignificant (if not negative) value in the grand scheme of things. I really don't give a crap though since you also posted the following
>>I won't be switching off mechanisms that teach mech until ALL mech skills have been released.
As long as any attempt to pacify people paranoid about double dipping experience involves leaving Mech Lore training on until Alchemy/Enchanting are out, it's all cool with me
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Apu
> Are they more valuable because there were fewer of them earned per unit time, so they cost more seconds to earn? If that's true, then the goal of normalized bits is to make the bonus bits you earn normalized to the amount of time they're saving you, right? So you can say "This pulse is at 50 ranks, so reduce me by some fraction of a pulse (if pulses are calculated at 100 ranks)."
> So now you have a bucket of pulses of value P_100, and you reduce them by fractions or multiples (as necessary based on rank).
Agreed.
> The problem I'm seeing is that this number is meaningless - It's not representative of the time a person's put into earning skills, nor is it an accurate count of the bits within each skill that got absorbed. It's some hybrid combination of the two, and I think it does a mediocre job of returning a good approximation of a player's time OR effort spent training their skills.
I don't see why being an accurate count of the absorbed bits within a skill is important, though. Plain bits are an arbitrary unit of measure with no reflection in a player's play experience. We see time, and we see percentage of rank, neither of which map to plain bits. I agree normalized bits are not representative of time spent, but aren't they closer to that than plain bits are?
What normalized bits do accurately measure is the amount of time a player spends absorbing from the bonus pool. For simplicity, let's assume I only absorb one skill at a time. If we work in plain bits, time spent absorbing a high rank skill drains the bonus pool faster than time spent absorbing a low rank skill. To a player, it might look like this:
"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice, so I need to spend 120 total hours training. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 20 hours twice, so I need to spend 130 total hours training. I know which I'm going to do."
If we instead work in normalized bits, all skills drain from the pool at the same rate. So now the player says:
"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. 120 total hours either way."
> "Plain Bits" are something that are easy enough to grasp without diving deep into the details of how the exp system works. It's pretty simple to understand that all of the experience that I earned to get to rank 500 in stalking will eventually be returned to me for free.
This makes sense.
I also don't know how much difference there would be between the two systems, in actual play. We might be discussing a very small distinction, in the long run.
Either way, I'm enjoying the discussion, so thank you.
> So now you have a bucket of pulses of value P_100, and you reduce them by fractions or multiples (as necessary based on rank).
Agreed.
> The problem I'm seeing is that this number is meaningless - It's not representative of the time a person's put into earning skills, nor is it an accurate count of the bits within each skill that got absorbed. It's some hybrid combination of the two, and I think it does a mediocre job of returning a good approximation of a player's time OR effort spent training their skills.
I don't see why being an accurate count of the absorbed bits within a skill is important, though. Plain bits are an arbitrary unit of measure with no reflection in a player's play experience. We see time, and we see percentage of rank, neither of which map to plain bits. I agree normalized bits are not representative of time spent, but aren't they closer to that than plain bits are?
What normalized bits do accurately measure is the amount of time a player spends absorbing from the bonus pool. For simplicity, let's assume I only absorb one skill at a time. If we work in plain bits, time spent absorbing a high rank skill drains the bonus pool faster than time spent absorbing a low rank skill. To a player, it might look like this:
"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice, so I need to spend 120 total hours training. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 20 hours twice, so I need to spend 130 total hours training. I know which I'm going to do."
If we instead work in normalized bits, all skills drain from the pool at the same rate. So now the player says:
"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. 120 total hours either way."
> "Plain Bits" are something that are easy enough to grasp without diving deep into the details of how the exp system works. It's pretty simple to understand that all of the experience that I earned to get to rank 500 in stalking will eventually be returned to me for free.
This makes sense.
I also don't know how much difference there would be between the two systems, in actual play. We might be discussing a very small distinction, in the long run.
Either way, I'm enjoying the discussion, so thank you.
>>Say someone will have a general overall skillset requirement in their guild.
They won't. This specific kind of requirement is being removed (!). Partially due to grandfathering concerns, partially due to mechanics concerns, and partially because the idea that a 149th circle empath that's never trained a crafting skill shouldn't be able to circle with 30 fresh ranks in Engineering.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
They won't. This specific kind of requirement is being removed (!). Partially due to grandfathering concerns, partially due to mechanics concerns, and partially because the idea that a 149th circle empath that's never trained a crafting skill shouldn't be able to circle with 30 fresh ranks in Engineering.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
<<Again, I have yet to hear of a situation where people are training skills but don't want those ranks to be gained.>>
OK, I would like to listen to a class in skill x and I could care less about getting scholarship or teaching. Listen to a class in a weapon skill, magic skill or survival skill or another lore skill. I do not want to waste my lore bonus pool going into scholarship or teaching. Some people would probably love that option, but I want it all going into... well for Magdar's lore pool Smithing. Before the advent of the bonus pool you could argue I did wanted the ranks (TDP farming), but after? NO Thank you. I will take is all in my choice, smithing, please.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
OK, I would like to listen to a class in skill x and I could care less about getting scholarship or teaching. Listen to a class in a weapon skill, magic skill or survival skill or another lore skill. I do not want to waste my lore bonus pool going into scholarship or teaching. Some people would probably love that option, but I want it all going into... well for Magdar's lore pool Smithing. Before the advent of the bonus pool you could argue I did wanted the ranks (TDP farming), but after? NO Thank you. I will take is all in my choice, smithing, please.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
Bits
>>I agree normalized bits are not representative of time spent, but aren't they closer to that than plain bits are?
Not in any provable way, but they're a lot easier to understand.
>>"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice, so I need to spend 120 total hours training. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 20 hours twice, so I need to spend 130 total hours training. I know which I'm going to do."
>>"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. 120 total hours either way."
I don't explicitly disagree with the logic here - I think this best captures my objection:
>>I also don't know how much difference there would be between the two systems, in actual play. We might be discussing a very small distinction, in the long run.
Additionally, the truth of the matter is, very, very few people are going to optimize their bonus bits. There are only a few on this forum that will, and there is a surprising number of people who never visit the forums at all and care very little about optimization. They're going to train their skills the same way regardless of the route we take, and if anything will just want to have some measure of sanity that something that they lost has been preserved. Explaining 'normalized bits' concept is clearly difficult during discourse on the boards, which is a pretty decent dialog. It would be nigh-impossible to describe in a news item or single post, and I don't think it's worth the freedom from optimization imbalances to do that.
>>I don't see why being an accurate count of the absorbed bits within a skill is important, though.
The importance here is that it gives people a tangible concept to hold onto when assessing how they'll be affected. Believe me, if the answer to "What happens to all of my lost ranks?" was anything less simple as the bits in the bonus pool, there would be substantial uproar because people would be very mad about "losing ranks". The truth of it is that everybody's losing and everybody's gaining, and it's really a whole new world and we're making our best effort to migrate everybody over as best as we can. It can't be perfect and not everybody's going to be happy with every aspect, but change is hard. What we're doing is going to set us up for a much more rational and balanced future, once we've shaken out the trauma of the migration.
Skills
>>OK, I would like to listen to a class in skill x and I could care less about getting scholarship or teaching.
Actually that's a fair point. Being able to toggle your bonus pool as active or inactive would let you listen to the class at non-bonused rates for lore. That seems plausible to me. A toggle (that defaults to "on" for everybody) seems like a fair way to go to allow you to have macro control of what gets the bonus bits.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>>I agree normalized bits are not representative of time spent, but aren't they closer to that than plain bits are?
Not in any provable way, but they're a lot easier to understand.
>>"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice, so I need to spend 120 total hours training. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 20 hours twice, so I need to spend 130 total hours training. I know which I'm going to do."
>>"I need to spend 100 hours training skill X and 50 hours training skill Y to achieve my goals. If I work on skill X first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. If I work on skill Y first, my bonus pool will let me count my first 30 hours twice. 120 total hours either way."
I don't explicitly disagree with the logic here - I think this best captures my objection:
>>I also don't know how much difference there would be between the two systems, in actual play. We might be discussing a very small distinction, in the long run.
Additionally, the truth of the matter is, very, very few people are going to optimize their bonus bits. There are only a few on this forum that will, and there is a surprising number of people who never visit the forums at all and care very little about optimization. They're going to train their skills the same way regardless of the route we take, and if anything will just want to have some measure of sanity that something that they lost has been preserved. Explaining 'normalized bits' concept is clearly difficult during discourse on the boards, which is a pretty decent dialog. It would be nigh-impossible to describe in a news item or single post, and I don't think it's worth the freedom from optimization imbalances to do that.
>>I don't see why being an accurate count of the absorbed bits within a skill is important, though.
The importance here is that it gives people a tangible concept to hold onto when assessing how they'll be affected. Believe me, if the answer to "What happens to all of my lost ranks?" was anything less simple as the bits in the bonus pool, there would be substantial uproar because people would be very mad about "losing ranks". The truth of it is that everybody's losing and everybody's gaining, and it's really a whole new world and we're making our best effort to migrate everybody over as best as we can. It can't be perfect and not everybody's going to be happy with every aspect, but change is hard. What we're doing is going to set us up for a much more rational and balanced future, once we've shaken out the trauma of the migration.
Skills
>>OK, I would like to listen to a class in skill x and I could care less about getting scholarship or teaching.
Actually that's a fair point. Being able to toggle your bonus pool as active or inactive would let you listen to the class at non-bonused rates for lore. That seems plausible to me. A toggle (that defaults to "on" for everybody) seems like a fair way to go to allow you to have macro control of what gets the bonus bits.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>Here's another idea - What if you could gain experience in both at the same time, but when you transfer your ranks, they start at 0.
Personally, I don't like this idea, because it then negates the work, however small, you did to earn the 'trial' ranks in the skill.
If the idea is to let someone 'try out' a crafting system, I think it would be cool if you could go to the Craftmaster, and do something like 'ASK MasterBob for TUTOR'. The system then allots you some ghost ranks, maybe 100, for a couple hours of time, and RP's out that you've been assigned a tutor for the day to 'show you the ropes'. Then, you can play around with some of the lower level patterns, get a feel for if you like the system. Put a timer on how often you can do that (maybe 1 week per discipline). You wouldn't earn any exp while being TUTORed, but you'd be able to tinker...
Then, if you start from 0 ranks and work a craft, you can gain skill in that lore up to 25 or 50 ranks before you get a warning about 'any more ranks and you can't transfer in Mech Lore'. That way, even if you gain some residual ranks in a lore before you choose your professions and/or transfer your Mech Lore ranks in, the new lore ranks aren't just wiped away like they never existed.
Kythryn
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
Personally, I don't like this idea, because it then negates the work, however small, you did to earn the 'trial' ranks in the skill.
If the idea is to let someone 'try out' a crafting system, I think it would be cool if you could go to the Craftmaster, and do something like 'ASK MasterBob for TUTOR'. The system then allots you some ghost ranks, maybe 100, for a couple hours of time, and RP's out that you've been assigned a tutor for the day to 'show you the ropes'. Then, you can play around with some of the lower level patterns, get a feel for if you like the system. Put a timer on how often you can do that (maybe 1 week per discipline). You wouldn't earn any exp while being TUTORed, but you'd be able to tinker...
Then, if you start from 0 ranks and work a craft, you can gain skill in that lore up to 25 or 50 ranks before you get a warning about 'any more ranks and you can't transfer in Mech Lore'. That way, even if you gain some residual ranks in a lore before you choose your professions and/or transfer your Mech Lore ranks in, the new lore ranks aren't just wiped away like they never existed.
Kythryn
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
How does the bonus pool work with regards to exp drain upon login? I don't care if it works for it or not just curious.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>Same thing as before, where if you move your mech into a skill, it wipes that skill first EXCEPT it leaves the first 100 ranks.
and
>When Alchemy comes out, there's two weeks during the "preview" where people can try it out, and have their learned ranks added to their mech ranks if they decide to make the move.
I could get behind either of these ideas too. I just hate that idea that time you spend earning EXP, regardless of if it is 1 rank or 1000, is wiped away.
Thanks for keeping this topic on the 'mull-over' list!
Kythryn
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
and
>When Alchemy comes out, there's two weeks during the "preview" where people can try it out, and have their learned ranks added to their mech ranks if they decide to make the move.
I could get behind either of these ideas too. I just hate that idea that time you spend earning EXP, regardless of if it is 1 rank or 1000, is wiped away.
Thanks for keeping this topic on the 'mull-over' list!
Kythryn
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
>Either way, I'm enjoying the discussion, so thank you.
You did an excellent job of discussing it, Illiena.
>I also don't know how much difference there would be between the two systems, in actual play. We might be discussing a very small distinction, in the long run.
yeah who knows. how much do bits vary from adjusted bits. who is johhny g?
You did an excellent job of discussing it, Illiena.
>I also don't know how much difference there would be between the two systems, in actual play. We might be discussing a very small distinction, in the long run.
yeah who knows. how much do bits vary from adjusted bits. who is johhny g?
<<The market is already getting flooded with superior products>>
This is like actually being surprised by the tyrannosaur in Jurassic Park. boom Boom BOOM!
Crafting has to become substantially more difficult than it currently is. For a temporary fix, let's borrow the thinking in this line from your same post:
<<This gives people 100 ranks to decide if a skill is something they want to use,>>
Cap current crafting at 100 mech until the entire system and all 5 skills are released. That will kill the tyrannosaur for now.
That also means learning mech through crafting experience will either have to be reconfigured so that a "hard" work order ain't what it used to be as far as the final quality. Or else disable it so everyone will have to go back to origami and braiding for a while. I know it's easy to get spoiled on what Kodius has given us so far, but truth is crafting is not really "released." Some of the skills and disciplines are available for testing, but Kodius's tentative schedule for crafting to be out in the wild (as far as the complete system and all disciplines) is late fall with enchanting. It's only a few more months. I know I will live; I'm sure we all will.
Anyone who wants to test crafting with more ranks could use the test server. I don't have access to the test server, so I'm not burdening anyone with anything I don't also have to endure.
To make the system harder, one thing would be to restructure the mech rank tech ladder so it's one tech per 100 ranks up to 1200 instead of the current non-linear 900. This won't solve the problem completely, but it will take longer for the tyrannosaurs to wake back up fully. Also could just take away all storebought metals right now and make everyone mine for what they need. That might drive some of the pikers out of the game. And choke down the supply of super metals. Eventually however, we know people will start making harder and better stuff as people build ranks. That's fine. But the system is too easy right now.
I know GMs wear a lot of hats, but I wish there was a different division of labor back there that could make crafting Kodius's unconditional priority. It sounds like these annoying mech questions will go away as soon as crafting is completed.
Everyone's had a very long time to prepare their mech, including me, and it shows. It's a shame the entire crafting system couldn't have been developed secretly and released out of nowhere all at once so we'd catch the average crafter with 300ish mech and a slack-jawed, glassy-eyed look. But coulda, shoulda, woulda I guess.
This is admittedly a harsh post.
Kaxis
>concentrate on journey
You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.
This is like actually being surprised by the tyrannosaur in Jurassic Park. boom Boom BOOM!
Crafting has to become substantially more difficult than it currently is. For a temporary fix, let's borrow the thinking in this line from your same post:
<<This gives people 100 ranks to decide if a skill is something they want to use,>>
Cap current crafting at 100 mech until the entire system and all 5 skills are released. That will kill the tyrannosaur for now.
That also means learning mech through crafting experience will either have to be reconfigured so that a "hard" work order ain't what it used to be as far as the final quality. Or else disable it so everyone will have to go back to origami and braiding for a while. I know it's easy to get spoiled on what Kodius has given us so far, but truth is crafting is not really "released." Some of the skills and disciplines are available for testing, but Kodius's tentative schedule for crafting to be out in the wild (as far as the complete system and all disciplines) is late fall with enchanting. It's only a few more months. I know I will live; I'm sure we all will.
Anyone who wants to test crafting with more ranks could use the test server. I don't have access to the test server, so I'm not burdening anyone with anything I don't also have to endure.
To make the system harder, one thing would be to restructure the mech rank tech ladder so it's one tech per 100 ranks up to 1200 instead of the current non-linear 900. This won't solve the problem completely, but it will take longer for the tyrannosaurs to wake back up fully. Also could just take away all storebought metals right now and make everyone mine for what they need. That might drive some of the pikers out of the game. And choke down the supply of super metals. Eventually however, we know people will start making harder and better stuff as people build ranks. That's fine. But the system is too easy right now.
I know GMs wear a lot of hats, but I wish there was a different division of labor back there that could make crafting Kodius's unconditional priority. It sounds like these annoying mech questions will go away as soon as crafting is completed.
Everyone's had a very long time to prepare their mech, including me, and it shows. It's a shame the entire crafting system couldn't have been developed secretly and released out of nowhere all at once so we'd catch the average crafter with 300ish mech and a slack-jawed, glassy-eyed look. But coulda, shoulda, woulda I guess.
This is admittedly a harsh post.
Kaxis
>concentrate on journey
You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.
I pretty much completely disagree with everything Kaxis just said, so I'll leave it at that.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>> You did an excellent job of discussing it, Illiena.
Agreed, interesting discussion.
Also thanks Socharis, for addressing my questions regarding skill vs. circle caps. Admittedly I have no great concern either way -- I've no inclination of reaching either cap ever -- but I was curious. I still have some lingering questions but they're trifling...
Now I'm mostly curious how the mech split will actually work. Not the controversy of double dipping/whatever, but rather actual mechanics of decision. The only time I've seen the mechanics directly addressed it has usually been "Probably how we did the music lore split." Well I was taking a hiatus from DR when that occurred, so I'm rather clueless. If someone could link a post or explain how it worked that would be great.
For example, I just hit 500 mech lore (yay). If it were straight ranks, and Artistry turns out as cool as I hope, I'd probably split rank-for-rank something like 200 Outfitting, 100 Engineering, 100 Forging, 50 Alchemy, 50 Enchanting. Not quite, but that's a good guide of where my interests lie. Everything I've seen posted insinuates it will be bit-based rather than rank based, which is awesome, I just wanna know HOW. If I dump 200 ranks into one craft, how will I know how many ranks I have left to dump into the others?
Agreed, interesting discussion.
Also thanks Socharis, for addressing my questions regarding skill vs. circle caps. Admittedly I have no great concern either way -- I've no inclination of reaching either cap ever -- but I was curious. I still have some lingering questions but they're trifling...
Now I'm mostly curious how the mech split will actually work. Not the controversy of double dipping/whatever, but rather actual mechanics of decision. The only time I've seen the mechanics directly addressed it has usually been "Probably how we did the music lore split." Well I was taking a hiatus from DR when that occurred, so I'm rather clueless. If someone could link a post or explain how it worked that would be great.
For example, I just hit 500 mech lore (yay). If it were straight ranks, and Artistry turns out as cool as I hope, I'd probably split rank-for-rank something like 200 Outfitting, 100 Engineering, 100 Forging, 50 Alchemy, 50 Enchanting. Not quite, but that's a good guide of where my interests lie. Everything I've seen posted insinuates it will be bit-based rather than rank based, which is awesome, I just wanna know HOW. If I dump 200 ranks into one craft, how will I know how many ranks I have left to dump into the others?
>Everything I've seen posted insinuates it will be bit-based rather than rank based, which is awesome, I just wanna know HOW. If I dump 200 ranks into one craft, how will I know how many ranks I have left to dump into the others?
As I recall, it was something like MOVE STRINGS 100 (I'm sure the syntax was something else), which took the top 100 ranks from your music skill and dumped it into however many ranks that was of strings.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
As I recall, it was something like MOVE STRINGS 100 (I'm sure the syntax was something else), which took the top 100 ranks from your music skill and dumped it into however many ranks that was of strings.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
> As I recall, it was something like MOVE STRINGS 100 (I'm sure the syntax was something else), which took the top 100 ranks from your music skill and dumped it into however many ranks that was of strings.
Would the system tell you "If you do this, you'll have X ranks of strings" before you did it?
Would the system tell you "If you do this, you'll have X ranks of strings" before you did it?
>choose music
[The correct syntax for this command is: CHOOSE MUSIC <instrument skill/balance> <ranks to convert/all>
Valid choices for instrument skill are: percussion, wind, string, vocal. This will take the top ranks in your Musical Theory skill and convert it to the appropriate number of ranks in the instrument skill. If you choose BALANCE instead of an instrument skill, the bits from the designated ranks in Musical Theory will be divided evenly between all the instruments. If you already have skill in an instrument then that skill will likely remain higher as the BALANCE option does not try to even out the ranks in the various instrument skills.]
[The correct syntax for this command is: CHOOSE MUSIC <instrument skill/balance> <ranks to convert/all>
Valid choices for instrument skill are: percussion, wind, string, vocal. This will take the top ranks in your Musical Theory skill and convert it to the appropriate number of ranks in the instrument skill. If you choose BALANCE instead of an instrument skill, the bits from the designated ranks in Musical Theory will be divided evenly between all the instruments. If you already have skill in an instrument then that skill will likely remain higher as the BALANCE option does not try to even out the ranks in the various instrument skills.]
> When I sit around and chat with people I use a completely different set of skills then when I hunt. Does this mean no more sitting around and chatting with people because I want my bonus pool to go toward my hunting skills?
Socharis said he was considering an on\off switch for bonus pool, which would solve that problem for you.
Socharis said he was considering an on\off switch for bonus pool, which would solve that problem for you.
>>Tutoring
I actually really like the idea. There'd have to be some additional restrictions, like being able to take techs or something, but since the Crafting Core was written really well, this is a feasible idea. I'll see what Kodius thinks.
>>How does the bonus pool work with regards to exp drain upon login? I don't care if it works for it or not just curious.
It works like "Whoa good morning indeed!"
Translation: Double bits all the way down the train as long as your pools are turned on and you have bonus bits.
>>thanks to socharis for the time, effort, patience, and thought put forth. thanks dude.
Welcome. Hardest thing right now is replying to the right thread.
>>Cap current crafting at 100 mech until the entire system and all 5 skills are released. That will kill the tyrannosaur for now.
That's a really simple patch that'll basically make everybody who cares about the issue mad. It doesn't actually solve the problems we want to solve though.
>>It's a shame the entire crafting system couldn't have been developed secretly and released out of nowhere all at once so we'd catch the average crafter with 300ish mech and a slack-jawed, glassy-eyed look
Actually I'm REALLY glad we did it incrementally, because being able to watch what people are doing and want to do has shaped some of the choices we (and by 'we' I mean 'Kodius with me being annoying over his shoulder') have made.
>>The only time I've seen the mechanics directly addressed it has usually been "Probably how we did the music lore split." Well I was taking a hiatus from DR when that occurred, so I'm rather clueless. If someone could link a post or explain how it worked that would be great.
Excellent (And new!) question!
The basics would be something like this:
>CONVERT 50 MECH INTO ENGINEERING
You cannot do that while you have field experience in Engineering or Mech Lore
>CONVERT 50 MECH INTO ENGINEERING
This will convert 50 ranks of your Mech Lore into 95 ranks of Engineering [MADE UP NUMBERS], leaving you with 150 ranks of Mech Lore.
You can only convert Mech Lore into Engineering ranks ONCE. Are you sure you want to do this? Please re-enter the command 5 seconds from now to confirm.
>CONVERT 50 MECH INTO ENGINEERING
Please wait 3 more seconds before confirming
>CONVERT 50 MECH INTO ENGINEERING
You've converted 50 ranks of your Mech Lore into 95 ranks of Engineering. You now have 150 ranks of Mech Lore.
until you've done them all. There's probably also an ALL in there.
>>Does this mean no more sitting around and chatting with people because I want my bonus pool to go toward my hunting skills?
This is the basic scenario that has influenced me to consider a toggle.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
<<That's a really simple patch that'll basically make everybody who cares about the issue mad. It doesn't actually solve the problems we want to solve though.>>
The post was only intended to correct the market already flooded with superior products issue, which it would do nicely. But like you said, not everyone would be able to handle it, hence my "harsh post" comment at the end. The post didn't address mech splitting issues, which are another set of thorny problems for sure.
At the moment I don't see how the flood of superior products issue can be solved without some kind of sharp pull on the reins. But you guys have pulled rabbits out of your hats before. I'll be interested to see how this turns out.
Kaxis
>concentrate on journey
You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.
The post was only intended to correct the market already flooded with superior products issue, which it would do nicely. But like you said, not everyone would be able to handle it, hence my "harsh post" comment at the end. The post didn't address mech splitting issues, which are another set of thorny problems for sure.
At the moment I don't see how the flood of superior products issue can be solved without some kind of sharp pull on the reins. But you guys have pulled rabbits out of your hats before. I'll be interested to see how this turns out.
Kaxis
>concentrate on journey
You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.
>>At the moment I don't see how the flood of superior products issue can be solved without some kind of sharp pull on the reins.
The idea is that forcing people to commit to Smithing means that the very skilled leatherworkers, fletchers, and pyramid owners (?) of the world have to decide if they want to continue making money from Smithing or hold out until the craft they built their legacy on has been released. I think it's actually a pretty solid solution.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
The idea is that forcing people to commit to Smithing means that the very skilled leatherworkers, fletchers, and pyramid owners (?) of the world have to decide if they want to continue making money from Smithing or hold out until the craft they built their legacy on has been released. I think it's actually a pretty solid solution.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Steering the mech break trainwreck back towards circle cap discussion....
>>Oddly enough, the technical hurdles of circling to 200 are actually very few. It's the perception problem, and the expectations that come from doing it.
Very few? Then throw out a bone to the guys thats are playing just to see their numbers get big! (Which I think is just about everyone with a character thats "beyond" 150.
Whether you like it or not, people already have perceptions of what should be in the game... and they aren't really circle based. Content pretty much dies almost completely post 110 or so for most guilds (some before that). So it seems like your afraid of creating a system where people feel that content is not being placed into the game... when everyone already lives in that world. My circle 97 barb is hunting dillos... the only thing I got to look forward too now is PVP and Dragonpriest. If people want to complain, they will have already done so. Increasing the theoretical cap won't hurt this (particularly if its done in a way that shows that its just "hey...lets see where you can go").
It would be like trying to beat Pac-Man. There isn't a true ending. (Don't talk about glitch level please)
By the way... 150-200 requiring 2000 in all skills seems a bit insane at the current pace. Maybe 150-250? Hard to believe 50 levels would more than double out all other 150 circles.
>> The fact it's being considered, no matter how much or little meat is on the bone besides "bragging rights", should be a positive thing.
This is exactly what I've been pushing for. Setting things up for nothing more than a measurement of success in your guild based on the abilities you need to circle.
>>What it encourages is people saying "I can get to circle 175 but I have nothing to hunt then, make something to hunt".
I can't remember a time in DR with maybe an exception for when flex mobs where inserted, where this HASN'T been a problem. :: Plays Twilight Zone Music :: You live in the world you fear to create!
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
>>Oddly enough, the technical hurdles of circling to 200 are actually very few. It's the perception problem, and the expectations that come from doing it.
Very few? Then throw out a bone to the guys thats are playing just to see their numbers get big! (Which I think is just about everyone with a character thats "beyond" 150.
Whether you like it or not, people already have perceptions of what should be in the game... and they aren't really circle based. Content pretty much dies almost completely post 110 or so for most guilds (some before that). So it seems like your afraid of creating a system where people feel that content is not being placed into the game... when everyone already lives in that world. My circle 97 barb is hunting dillos... the only thing I got to look forward too now is PVP and Dragonpriest. If people want to complain, they will have already done so. Increasing the theoretical cap won't hurt this (particularly if its done in a way that shows that its just "hey...lets see where you can go").
It would be like trying to beat Pac-Man. There isn't a true ending. (Don't talk about glitch level please)
By the way... 150-200 requiring 2000 in all skills seems a bit insane at the current pace. Maybe 150-250? Hard to believe 50 levels would more than double out all other 150 circles.
>> The fact it's being considered, no matter how much or little meat is on the bone besides "bragging rights", should be a positive thing.
This is exactly what I've been pushing for. Setting things up for nothing more than a measurement of success in your guild based on the abilities you need to circle.
>>What it encourages is people saying "I can get to circle 175 but I have nothing to hunt then, make something to hunt".
I can't remember a time in DR with maybe an exception for when flex mobs where inserted, where this HASN'T been a problem. :: Plays Twilight Zone Music :: You live in the world you fear to create!
Wolfegard quietly says, "I got hitched in a tree."
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Wolfegard's pockets and carefully grab a gold wedding band.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
At the very least increasing the circle cap would make things interesting :)
Requirements for Circle 204:
You have enough 4th Lore(Appraisal) for Circle 203 and need 5 (1024) ranks for Circle 204
Dumb appraisal :(
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
Requirements for Circle 204:
You have enough 4th Lore(Appraisal) for Circle 203 and need 5 (1024) ranks for Circle 204
Dumb appraisal :(
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
