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I don't have a Paladin. If a Paladin requires help testing any of these abilities, please let me know at AIM: Stigma21215
The below are a list of abilites which might need proper looking at, as the last time I've seen them they were kind of crazy.
GLYPH WARD - Allows the Paladin to trace a glyph over anyone in view, with 0 RT and no cooldown, and instantly negates the TARGET/AIM verb and any accuracy that would otherwise be granted for those actions. No skill check.
PROTECT <PERSON> - Allows the Paladin to intercept a melee attack of anyone attacking said person. No skill check that I was able to figure out(someone with 400's defense was negating every single one of my attacks and giving me huge RT for even attempting the attack). The Paladin is not harmed by using this ability. Furthermore, two Paladins protecting each other makes them both invincible. Again, no skill check from what I've seen.
LEAD - As noted in a previous post, in Test I was with a Paladin who was Leading and, via the Lead, was able to one-shot Dragon Priest Intercessors with a mirror blade.
Further testing is probably needed before nerfing any of these abilities.
I REPEAT, I AM NOT SAYING TO NERF ANYTHING -- THESE ABILITIES NEED TESTING. PALADINS, PLEASE TEST. K THX
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
>>Beveragek: PROTECT <PERSON> - Allows the Paladin to intercept a melee attack of anyone attacking said person. No skill check that I was able to figure out(someone with 400's defense was negating every single one of my attacks and giving me huge RT for even attempting the attack). The Paladin is not harmed by using this ability. Furthermore, two Paladins protecting each other makes them both invincible. Again, no skill check from what I've seen.
Protect deflect just attempts to deflect blows. If the Paladin fails to deflect the blow (the skill checks involve the Paladin's defenses versus the attacker's offenses), the ward is on his own, defense-wise.
Protect cover is like protect deflect except that if the Paladin fails to deflect the blow, he actually takes damage (instead of his ward). According to Elanthipedia, there is "a rather hefty evasion penalty" attached to this ability. In my experience, there can also be significant (what used to be called) MO issues when both the Paladin and the ward are engaged with multiple critters. If I want to get in a world of hurt quickly, I can use this ability while hunting at level with a partner.
I have not tested this with another Paladin, but I don't see how it's possible for two Paladins to be invincible if they are using this ability on each other (any more than they would be invincible if fighting the same mobs without protect), as failed attempts to protect simply damage the protector and/or ward.
As for the PvP implications, if a Paladin does this, he grants consent to both combatants (in addition to risking injury from the ability itself).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Protect deflect just attempts to deflect blows. If the Paladin fails to deflect the blow (the skill checks involve the Paladin's defenses versus the attacker's offenses), the ward is on his own, defense-wise.
Protect cover is like protect deflect except that if the Paladin fails to deflect the blow, he actually takes damage (instead of his ward). According to Elanthipedia, there is "a rather hefty evasion penalty" attached to this ability. In my experience, there can also be significant (what used to be called) MO issues when both the Paladin and the ward are engaged with multiple critters. If I want to get in a world of hurt quickly, I can use this ability while hunting at level with a partner.
I have not tested this with another Paladin, but I don't see how it's possible for two Paladins to be invincible if they are using this ability on each other (any more than they would be invincible if fighting the same mobs without protect), as failed attempts to protect simply damage the protector and/or ward.
As for the PvP implications, if a Paladin does this, he grants consent to both combatants (in addition to risking injury from the ability itself).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
GLYPH WARD Use something else to kill the Paladin.
PROTECT <PERSON> Kill the Paladin
LEAD Stop joining Paladins.
Seriously, go away.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
I expect when we get our glyph re write (and hopefully, expansion) some of the older mechanics will be brought up to date. I'm not sure what the mechanics on Protect are, but there very well could be a bug there. After testing for some time, I cant see an issue with Lead. I will need to do testing vs players to get accurate numbers but my kill rate did not adjust with my main weapons on warklin (my backtraining weapons saw a somewhat nice boost, but nothing insane. It felt like i had a second RW up, but given Lead cant really be sustained given its pool hits, I think thats well balanced for spurts of power in group play).
Glyph of Warding has always worked that way, so I do not see what the 'bug' is. If you dislike the design, theres probably a different forum for that. I expect when some of our decade old mechanics get looked at during our re writes, they will probably function differently than they do now. I know Ricinus has been peaking at a number of our system(<3) so I'm sure they will get peaked at.
Glyph of Warding has always worked that way, so I do not see what the 'bug' is. If you dislike the design, theres probably a different forum for that. I expect when some of our decade old mechanics get looked at during our re writes, they will probably function differently than they do now. I know Ricinus has been peaking at a number of our system(<3) so I'm sure they will get peaked at.
>> Glyph of Warding has always worked that way, so I do not see what the 'bug' is. If you dislike the design, theres probably a different forum for that. I expect when some of our decade old mechanics get looked at during our re writes, they will probably function differently than they do now. I know Ricinus has been peaking at a number of our system(<3) so I'm sure they will get peaked at.
If he wants it tweaked so its contested,As along its contested when he's dead also that is fine by me he can use another favor and depart to get his items.
The bucket burbles suddenly as its contents begin to dissolve....
Suddenly it spits out some niniam field plate onto the floor.
If he wants it tweaked so its contested,As along its contested when he's dead also that is fine by me he can use another favor and depart to get his items.
The bucket burbles suddenly as its contents begin to dissolve....
Suddenly it spits out some niniam field plate onto the floor.
>>I'm all for testing, but you clearly didn't try the ability much before making these declarations.
I did actually -- I tested with Casserah and another Paladin whose name I can't remember. They were both invincible. It was some form of PROTECT for sure.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
I did actually -- I tested with Casserah and another Paladin whose name I can't remember. They were both invincible. It was some form of PROTECT for sure.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
Correction, I should rephrase -- They were invincible to melee and I THINK thrown attacks. I think I could still blast them with an AOE TM spell though.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
In Leilonds defense, we did test protect deflect on test. I protect deflected casserah and vice versa, unless one of us got knocked down we were invicible. Even stanced at 20% defenses no one was getting touched. I still kind of believe that it had something to do with the damage be reduced by so many different factors that it was nullifed by the time it got through, i.e my vitality, my active defenses, then casserah's vitality, active defenses, absorbs on armor and protection on armor.
Thanks Ederick.
For the record, at some point in time I partially tested ALL of those abilities, and they seemed wonky to me at the time. I just want to make sure they're working NOW in Prime, and I need some Paladins to do that leg work for the in depth testing. They may have been absolutely fine in 2.0 -- I just want to ensure that they abide by standard game balancing protocols in today's world.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
For the record, at some point in time I partially tested ALL of those abilities, and they seemed wonky to me at the time. I just want to make sure they're working NOW in Prime, and I need some Paladins to do that leg work for the in depth testing. They may have been absolutely fine in 2.0 -- I just want to ensure that they abide by standard game balancing protocols in today's world.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
>>They may have been absolutely fine in 2.0 -- I just want to ensure that they abide by standard game balancing protocols in today's world.
Certainly however if they defy it, that doesnt mean its a bug. Again, I think its the wrong folder. The lead bug was valid and fixed, protect might be bugged, or it might be too effective (dont know). Glyph of Warding works exactly as it has been since its been available.
Certainly however if they defy it, that doesnt mean its a bug. Again, I think its the wrong folder. The lead bug was valid and fixed, protect might be bugged, or it might be too effective (dont know). Glyph of Warding works exactly as it has been since its been available.
I'm more than willing to do some testing, but this has not been my experience at all in pve. I actually had protect cover fail completely in a critter slightly below Katt's defensive level a week or two ago. My experience has matched what Isharon posted.
~Katt
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
>Glyph Ward
As others have stated, the aim/target cancel effect has been in place for a very long time and no non-paladin has really complained about as far as I’ve read so it’s hard to scream “out of balance.” I assume that’s because the glyph only works on spells/missile weapons being aimed at the paladin, requires a high soul state and draws from the same slow-regen [soul] pool as other abilities. In other words, there’s opportunity cost; it can’t be used ad nauseum and can hamper the paladin’s ability to use other soul pool powers.
It is also pretty easy to avoid being warded and the ward itself doesn’t negate any skill, just the aim/target bonus. All the caster/shooter has to do to avoid it is take advantage of the paladin's weakness and hide or go invisible before aiming. That tactic has been used against me in spars with missile users countless times. Bear in mind there’s no skill check for aiming from hiding either so even if I saw them hide, I didn’t see them aim. I can try to point and ward if they hid in the same room but by the time I've gone through the rt, my paladin usually has an arrow or bolt lodged in him.
>Protect
There should be skill checks involved. As I recall, Protect was very buggy on test but I think they fixed the major issues like the one you described. I could be wrong, though. Happy to help test any time you like; it’d help illuminate some still present bugs, particularly when it’s put up against some non-DFA TM spells. IM is theonlywarbie.
I can tell you I’ve used the Protects a few times since release and the skill checks seem to be working fine. The only issues I’ve seen are those that deal with certain abilities that don't seem to properly interact with protect and therefore bypass it. I have not used a protect swap with another paladin so I’ve no idea if that’s an issue. Didn’t even think it was possible.
>Lead
Like smite, lead was overpowered at one point in test. That isn’t the case now. The effects can be described as simply noticeable. I have not tested with a large group.
As others have stated, the aim/target cancel effect has been in place for a very long time and no non-paladin has really complained about as far as I’ve read so it’s hard to scream “out of balance.” I assume that’s because the glyph only works on spells/missile weapons being aimed at the paladin, requires a high soul state and draws from the same slow-regen [soul] pool as other abilities. In other words, there’s opportunity cost; it can’t be used ad nauseum and can hamper the paladin’s ability to use other soul pool powers.
It is also pretty easy to avoid being warded and the ward itself doesn’t negate any skill, just the aim/target bonus. All the caster/shooter has to do to avoid it is take advantage of the paladin's weakness and hide or go invisible before aiming. That tactic has been used against me in spars with missile users countless times. Bear in mind there’s no skill check for aiming from hiding either so even if I saw them hide, I didn’t see them aim. I can try to point and ward if they hid in the same room but by the time I've gone through the rt, my paladin usually has an arrow or bolt lodged in him.
>Protect
There should be skill checks involved. As I recall, Protect was very buggy on test but I think they fixed the major issues like the one you described. I could be wrong, though. Happy to help test any time you like; it’d help illuminate some still present bugs, particularly when it’s put up against some non-DFA TM spells. IM is theonlywarbie.
I can tell you I’ve used the Protects a few times since release and the skill checks seem to be working fine. The only issues I’ve seen are those that deal with certain abilities that don't seem to properly interact with protect and therefore bypass it. I have not used a protect swap with another paladin so I’ve no idea if that’s an issue. Didn’t even think it was possible.
>Lead
Like smite, lead was overpowered at one point in test. That isn’t the case now. The effects can be described as simply noticeable. I have not tested with a large group.
>>It is also pretty easy to avoid being warded and the ward itself doesn’t negate any skill, just the aim/target bonus.
In fairness, my understanding is that aiming/targeting is less a bonus and more a requirement in 3.0
While "glyph of warding is overpowered" is the funniest damn thing I ever heard, I think the glyph system as a whole, along with lead, could use some 3.0-ing to make it more daily-useful. I'd actually like to see it tied to (and train) the endurance skill.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
In fairness, my understanding is that aiming/targeting is less a bonus and more a requirement in 3.0
While "glyph of warding is overpowered" is the funniest damn thing I ever heard, I think the glyph system as a whole, along with lead, could use some 3.0-ing to make it more daily-useful. I'd actually like to see it tied to (and train) the endurance skill.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
<<As a ranged primary, I can say that this effect is just downright brutal. Not overpowered per se, but brutal.>>
Agreed. It's not Ward I think is the issue though, it's the vicious penalty to un-aimed/un-targeted TM attacks. There's some ways around this with TM (AOE, cyclics, certain unique spells), but for ranged weapons, it's brutal for sure. As Seb noted, your only option is "use something else." That's not particularly unique though (see WMs and AC effect on TM).
Agreed. It's not Ward I think is the issue though, it's the vicious penalty to un-aimed/un-targeted TM attacks. There's some ways around this with TM (AOE, cyclics, certain unique spells), but for ranged weapons, it's brutal for sure. As Seb noted, your only option is "use something else." That's not particularly unique though (see WMs and AC effect on TM).
The last time I tested lead with group size (one vs 10) I only noticed a duration increase. This was some time ago (i was hunting Leucro!) so a new test might be needed. I think my charisma back then was about 20 and its now short of 60, so id be curious to see if that has some baring on it, but last i knew circle + soul state dictated the bonus and charisma + group size dictated the duration (these numbers based on rumor, not testing).
<<I'd actually like to see it tied to (and train) the endurance skill.>>
I tend to agree, or make soul state more 3.0 and a more manageable/strategic resource. Powers that utilize off soul pool are very costly, generally making the pool more of a "if i have to use it" type of resource. Keeping soul state high requires some management and there are rather big PvP restrictions along with it, and training restrictions (paladins have limited access to stealth and of course cant train thievery). While some of that makes sense, we effectively given up a very viable pvp tool (surprise attacks, even just entering a room secretly) and I always interpret some of our glyphs as the reward to adhering to the strictness of the system (that and about a third of our spells seem to require that very high soul state, or cant be cast).
I feel logically, endurance and tactics(group maneuvers) needs to come out first and provide us the additional combat options we need. After that it should be easier for the GM's to review glyphs and lead update them to whatever they feel is appropriate. Doing it in reverse seems rather short sighted however; endurance and tactics (group maneuvers) would seem to be ideal base systems to build other paladins concepts off of.
I tend to agree, or make soul state more 3.0 and a more manageable/strategic resource. Powers that utilize off soul pool are very costly, generally making the pool more of a "if i have to use it" type of resource. Keeping soul state high requires some management and there are rather big PvP restrictions along with it, and training restrictions (paladins have limited access to stealth and of course cant train thievery). While some of that makes sense, we effectively given up a very viable pvp tool (surprise attacks, even just entering a room secretly) and I always interpret some of our glyphs as the reward to adhering to the strictness of the system (that and about a third of our spells seem to require that very high soul state, or cant be cast).
I feel logically, endurance and tactics(group maneuvers) needs to come out first and provide us the additional combat options we need. After that it should be easier for the GM's to review glyphs and lead update them to whatever they feel is appropriate. Doing it in reverse seems rather short sighted however; endurance and tactics (group maneuvers) would seem to be ideal base systems to build other paladins concepts off of.
>>Does Ward now not work against targeted spells?
It did as of last week. I think he means if you throw something big enough (50 mana) then it should hurt, however the issue which I agree with is that TM and Ranged snap shots have a rather significant TO HIT issue.
My thoughts on that is that snap shot TO HIT should be improved, and AIM should be rebalanced to be less of a TO HIT bonus and more of a damage bonus, with the net effect of a fully targetted shot behaving like it does today, and with a snap shot being more likely to hit (than today) and no more or less damaging.
If. if currently (made up numbers) my snap shot has 60 'accuracy' and 60 'damage' potentially and a fully aimed one is 100/100 respectively, then I propose that snap shots should be 80 'accuracy' and 60 'damage'.
This isnt a ward specific recommendation of course.
It did as of last week. I think he means if you throw something big enough (50 mana) then it should hurt, however the issue which I agree with is that TM and Ranged snap shots have a rather significant TO HIT issue.
My thoughts on that is that snap shot TO HIT should be improved, and AIM should be rebalanced to be less of a TO HIT bonus and more of a damage bonus, with the net effect of a fully targetted shot behaving like it does today, and with a snap shot being more likely to hit (than today) and no more or less damaging.
If. if currently (made up numbers) my snap shot has 60 'accuracy' and 60 'damage' potentially and a fully aimed one is 100/100 respectively, then I propose that snap shots should be 80 'accuracy' and 60 'damage'.
This isnt a ward specific recommendation of course.
>As a ranged primary, I can say that this effect is just downright brutal.
>It’s the vicious penalty to un-aimed/un-targeted TM attacks.
This.
I wouldn’t be totally against a contest of endurance v. appropriate skill at some point. My perhaps irrational fear or problem with making changes to ward now is three-fold:
1. There doesn’t appear to be an appropriate skill for the offense part a ward contest except maybe perception, which learns at a tertiary rate for us
2. Endurance might be an appropriate skill for the offense part of a ward contest but it isn’t fully developed yet and will probably be so far behind any missile weapon user’s (PC or NPC) weapon ranks that the glyph will be rendered almost unusable in at-level combat
3. All of 3.0 isn’t even fully released or completely finalized and we’re having a discussion about how an ability that remains fundamentally unchanged for several years, that nobody seemed to take issue with in all those years, should even make the 3.0 priority list right now
>It’s the vicious penalty to un-aimed/un-targeted TM attacks.
This.
I wouldn’t be totally against a contest of endurance v. appropriate skill at some point. My perhaps irrational fear or problem with making changes to ward now is three-fold:
1. There doesn’t appear to be an appropriate skill for the offense part a ward contest except maybe perception, which learns at a tertiary rate for us
2. Endurance might be an appropriate skill for the offense part of a ward contest but it isn’t fully developed yet and will probably be so far behind any missile weapon user’s (PC or NPC) weapon ranks that the glyph will be rendered almost unusable in at-level combat
3. All of 3.0 isn’t even fully released or completely finalized and we’re having a discussion about how an ability that remains fundamentally unchanged for several years, that nobody seemed to take issue with in all those years, should even make the 3.0 priority list right now
>2. Endurance might be an appropriate skill for the offense part of a ward contest but it isn’t fully developed yet and will probably be so far behind any missile weapon user’s (PC or NPC) weapon ranks that the glyph will be rendered almost unusable in at-level combat
Eh, I don't know about this part. It's a brand new skill that will be in paladins primary skill set and grandfathered to circle. I can't see it being that far behind unless I'm misunderstanding how that will work.
~Katt
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
Grand Fathered to circle will mean the minimum needed, generally well beneath where it would be had we had the skill since its onset. Since this has obvious pvp ramifications, something being brought up to minimum level is generally going to mean we will have to play a huge game of catch up.
My character is 93rd for instance, and I have about mid to low 500's in my armor skills. If someone was brought to my minimums (lets say on average, 4 a circle) that only be about 372 ranks, or about 130 off where my other skills are at in the same skill set. With higher circles/powered people, this is more and more of a concern since the gap would generally grow with more circles.
My character is 93rd for instance, and I have about mid to low 500's in my armor skills. If someone was brought to my minimums (lets say on average, 4 a circle) that only be about 372 ranks, or about 130 off where my other skills are at in the same skill set. With higher circles/powered people, this is more and more of a concern since the gap would generally grow with more circles.
<<All of 3.0 isn’t even fully released or completely finalized and we’re having a discussion about how an ability that remains fundamentally unchanged for several years, that nobody seemed to take issue with in all those years, should even make the 3.0 priority list right now
This.
There has been talk over the years of new abilities and revamping what we have. I have been playing my Paladin for 10 years and have seen little to no development(Smite and Protect being the most useful to me). I apologize for being defensive when someone suggests three things that actually work and are useful need looking at because they are too powerful, but really there are larger issues in the game and with the Paladin guild overall. There will never be balance in char vs. char contests. I loose as many spars or fights now as I did in 2.0. I would daresay that some folks that could not beat me in 2.0 can now. DFA, shove w/machine-gunned uber LT weapons, chain immobilizers etc. has been my experience so far in 3.0. It just takes them a little bit longer (happy to be done with the one-shots) but there are still some "I win" buttons and quite frankly, Paladins do not have any.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
This.
There has been talk over the years of new abilities and revamping what we have. I have been playing my Paladin for 10 years and have seen little to no development(Smite and Protect being the most useful to me). I apologize for being defensive when someone suggests three things that actually work and are useful need looking at because they are too powerful, but really there are larger issues in the game and with the Paladin guild overall. There will never be balance in char vs. char contests. I loose as many spars or fights now as I did in 2.0. I would daresay that some folks that could not beat me in 2.0 can now. DFA, shove w/machine-gunned uber LT weapons, chain immobilizers etc. has been my experience so far in 3.0. It just takes them a little bit longer (happy to be done with the one-shots) but there are still some "I win" buttons and quite frankly, Paladins do not have any.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
<<there are still some "I win" buttons and quite frankly, Paladins do not have any.>>
The whole point of the sense checks is, I believe, to check "I win" buttons across the board when and if the GMs believe it's warranted. As a general matter, I think they've done an incredible job of balancing what is basically a total ground up rewrite of everything we know, but there's so many moving pieces in play, it doesn't hurt to have us raising questions where possible concerns arise.
I happen to agree that none of the raised abilities in this thread qualify as "I win" anything, but that doesn't mean it's not worth a glance/check to see from those who know them best. A lot of times, it's very difficult to really know how the mechanics and "feel" of a another guild's abilities, so I personally think it's fair to raise the questions. Usually the answers from those experienced with the abilities address whatever perceived imbalance there is/was. And the optimistic side of me believes that if the questions are raised, and those experienced with the abilities know something is off, they'll agree to the point and suggest alterations (see Leilond's comments re aether wolves/cyclics and Gort's re roars).
It's also fair to be defensive, I certainly have my share of responses on that end.
<<All of 3.0 isn’t even fully released or completely finalized and we’re having a discussion about how an ability that remains fundamentally unchanged for several years>>
The issue there is that the fundamental changes to 3.0 necessarily change the relative strength of abilities that had no issue in 2.0, even for years. What was completely fine under those mechanics is not necessarily completely fine now. As a completely made-up hypothetical example: say in 2.0 snap aim shot was 80% of skill, and in 3.0 it's only 50%--that would drastically affect the relative power of Ward in the world, despite no real change to the ability itself.
The whole point of the sense checks is, I believe, to check "I win" buttons across the board when and if the GMs believe it's warranted. As a general matter, I think they've done an incredible job of balancing what is basically a total ground up rewrite of everything we know, but there's so many moving pieces in play, it doesn't hurt to have us raising questions where possible concerns arise.
I happen to agree that none of the raised abilities in this thread qualify as "I win" anything, but that doesn't mean it's not worth a glance/check to see from those who know them best. A lot of times, it's very difficult to really know how the mechanics and "feel" of a another guild's abilities, so I personally think it's fair to raise the questions. Usually the answers from those experienced with the abilities address whatever perceived imbalance there is/was. And the optimistic side of me believes that if the questions are raised, and those experienced with the abilities know something is off, they'll agree to the point and suggest alterations (see Leilond's comments re aether wolves/cyclics and Gort's re roars).
It's also fair to be defensive, I certainly have my share of responses on that end.
<<All of 3.0 isn’t even fully released or completely finalized and we’re having a discussion about how an ability that remains fundamentally unchanged for several years>>
The issue there is that the fundamental changes to 3.0 necessarily change the relative strength of abilities that had no issue in 2.0, even for years. What was completely fine under those mechanics is not necessarily completely fine now. As a completely made-up hypothetical example: say in 2.0 snap aim shot was 80% of skill, and in 3.0 it's only 50%--that would drastically affect the relative power of Ward in the world, despite no real change to the ability itself.
>>Beveragek: Correction, I should rephrase -- They were invincible to melee and I THINK thrown attacks. I think I could still blast them with an AOE TM spell though.
But would they have been able to resist those attacks on their own (all other things being equal except no protect)?
I have used protect pretty extensively in melee PvE 2.0. I'm willing to test this with another Paladin of comparable ability in an at-level situation.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
But would they have been able to resist those attacks on their own (all other things being equal except no protect)?
I have used protect pretty extensively in melee PvE 2.0. I'm willing to test this with another Paladin of comparable ability in an at-level situation.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
As enjoyable as mocking Leilond's melee prowess is, he can still kill me with it. Very slowly. Like getting paper cuts over and over.
That said, we were also having to stance below 20%, as I recall, for him to be able to hit us at all with melee attacks. If my defenses were actually set around 20%, Leilond should have been able to do quite a lot of damage.
This was some time ago though (I think sometime between late December and mid January) and may have been fixed since.
That said, we were also having to stance below 20%, as I recall, for him to be able to hit us at all with melee attacks. If my defenses were actually set around 20%, Leilond should have been able to do quite a lot of damage.
This was some time ago though (I think sometime between late December and mid January) and may have been fixed since.
>The issue there is that the fundamental changes to 3.0 necessarily change the relative strength of abilities that had no issue in 2.0, even for years. What was completely fine under those mechanics is not necessarily completely fine now. As a completely made-up hypothetical example: say in 2.0 snap aim shot was 80% of skill, and in 3.0 it's only 50%--that would drastically affect the relative power of Ward in the world, despite no real change to the ability itself.
I agree to a point. Smite is a good example of an ability that was overpowered in the initial stages of 3.0 testing, yet was fine in 2.0. However, the issue as you present it is that snap shots are far more penalizing in 3.0. That sounds like an issue with aimed weapons. Unless aimed weapons are going to receive no further changes and are, for all intents and purposes, done, we're putting the cart before the horse. That's what I meant by my number 3.
>I feel in all the time thats gone into making these forum posts, the interested parties could have found a paladin and conducted the test and then had the paladin post the results. I'm in game lots and always available to test things with.
You're probably right but ward hasn't really changed in function. The issue raised is over what it did and still does.
I agree to a point. Smite is a good example of an ability that was overpowered in the initial stages of 3.0 testing, yet was fine in 2.0. However, the issue as you present it is that snap shots are far more penalizing in 3.0. That sounds like an issue with aimed weapons. Unless aimed weapons are going to receive no further changes and are, for all intents and purposes, done, we're putting the cart before the horse. That's what I meant by my number 3.
>I feel in all the time thats gone into making these forum posts, the interested parties could have found a paladin and conducted the test and then had the paladin post the results. I'm in game lots and always available to test things with.
You're probably right but ward hasn't really changed in function. The issue raised is over what it did and still does.
<<I feel in all the time thats gone into making these forum posts, the interested parties could have found a paladin and conducted the test and then had the paladin post the results.
No.
It takes hardly any time to type a post. If not being willing to 'test' things makes me an inferior player and one to be ignored, so be it.
Ward - Only works a couple times because the opponent figures it out and hits me with a debilitation and shoots/casts to their hearts content, or they kill me by other means.
Protect - Does fail if the skills are about the same or outmatch mine. Additionally, in crowds my defenses are penalized a bit causing me to take more hits as well.
Lead - As a general buff, if those that can see the numbers says it does not break buff caps then there is nothing wrong with it. I can't tell. I do know that if my opponent outclasses me by about 300 ranks, and I lead a group of 4-5 it does not give me enough juice to even touch him.
That is the extent of my testing. These abilities 'feel' right to me.
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
No.
It takes hardly any time to type a post. If not being willing to 'test' things makes me an inferior player and one to be ignored, so be it.
Ward - Only works a couple times because the opponent figures it out and hits me with a debilitation and shoots/casts to their hearts content, or they kill me by other means.
Protect - Does fail if the skills are about the same or outmatch mine. Additionally, in crowds my defenses are penalized a bit causing me to take more hits as well.
Lead - As a general buff, if those that can see the numbers says it does not break buff caps then there is nothing wrong with it. I can't tell. I do know that if my opponent outclasses me by about 300 ranks, and I lead a group of 4-5 it does not give me enough juice to even touch him.
That is the extent of my testing. These abilities 'feel' right to me.
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
>>>Smite is a good example of an ability that was overpowered in the initial stages of 3.0 testing, yet was fine in 2.0
>> I dunno about fine - I see more damage with chop unless its something I can barely hit.
I think he was referring to the fact that it broke completely on it's conversion to the 3.0 system.
I can attest to it being crazy OP broken on test, as well as Uthgaar and uh, Guaranzo I think it was? It was fixed promptly though, after a bit of arguing.
There was some kind of leak with it where each Smite was stacking the power of the previous Smite, and it just kept incrementing. Was lol.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>> I dunno about fine - I see more damage with chop unless its something I can barely hit.
I think he was referring to the fact that it broke completely on it's conversion to the 3.0 system.
I can attest to it being crazy OP broken on test, as well as Uthgaar and uh, Guaranzo I think it was? It was fixed promptly though, after a bit of arguing.
There was some kind of leak with it where each Smite was stacking the power of the previous Smite, and it just kept incrementing. Was lol.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
The immunity with paladins protecting paladins with protect cover thing, in 2.0 at least as i've not seen/tried it since, comes from the fact that when the protecting paladin fails a protect deflect they usually still partially deflect the blow. Then the protectee defends against a much weaker blow than they would have been otherwise enabling them to survive in considerably more hostile environments than they could have done before. In effect the blow got defended against twice - once by the protector and once by the protectee. When used by two paladins it enabled survival in much harder places than normal because of this doubled defense effect but it pretty much completely negated the ability to learn defenses in the process so it was never worth doing. This effect also happened to protected non paladins too - by ramping down the paladins defenses until partial blows were getting through to the protectee you could enable the protectee to learn defenses in areas they couldn't normally survive in.
Tested lead tonight with Raidusk watching in Warklin. I sometimes will miss them with my Large Edge Skill, kertig sterak axe, with HW going. 400 skill on the dot. Before hand I was killing Warklin with an average of 8 hits(with one miss or so per). With lead up, it moved to 7 (out of a pool of 10 kills before/after). I did not see any increase in damage but was seeing fewer misses.
Not any sort of night and day 'one shotting' effects noticed so far.
Not any sort of night and day 'one shotting' effects noticed so far.
I, for one, would like to thank Leilond for bringing down the hellfire of his testabilities on the paladin guild.
Break everything we have and then they will have no choice but to reboot us. If anyone can bring development to our guild, it's apparently you.
I mean that more as a compliment than a callout. Keep it up, dude.
Break everything we have and then they will have no choice but to reboot us. If anyone can bring development to our guild, it's apparently you.
I mean that more as a compliment than a callout. Keep it up, dude.
Gort! I was trying to test the whole "double protect" thing bud when we were fighting. Don't run off next time! Also, it didn't seem to impact Zerreck..he was hitting me just fine when I was fighting with Seb.
Of course, I rather enjoyed the 2 minutes knockout from the little thief. Geez, you guys might want to check on that issue rather then worry about the OP'ness of the paladin guild.
Madigan
Of course, I rather enjoyed the 2 minutes knockout from the little thief. Geez, you guys might want to check on that issue rather then worry about the OP'ness of the paladin guild.
Madigan
>> I, for one, would like to thank Leilond for bringing down the hellfire of his testabilities on the paladin guild.
Break everything we have and then they will have no choice but to reboot us. If anyone can bring development to our guild, it's apparently you.
I mean that more as a compliment than a callout. Keep it up, dude.
Judge not the splinter in your neighbors eye, But the log in your own.
The bucket burbles suddenly as its contents begin to dissolve....
Suddenly it spits out some niniam field plate onto the floor.
Break everything we have and then they will have no choice but to reboot us. If anyone can bring development to our guild, it's apparently you.
I mean that more as a compliment than a callout. Keep it up, dude.
Judge not the splinter in your neighbors eye, But the log in your own.
The bucket burbles suddenly as its contents begin to dissolve....
Suddenly it spits out some niniam field plate onto the floor.
>>Of course, I rather enjoyed the 2 minutes knockout from the little thief. Geez, you guys might want to check on that issue rather then worry about the OP'ness of the paladin guild.
MUST NERF SMITE
But seriously, there seems to be many issues with disablers currently, ambush stun among them, as well as roaring quiet with barb roars.
MUST NERF SMITE
But seriously, there seems to be many issues with disablers currently, ambush stun among them, as well as roaring quiet with barb roars.
