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I have to ask, is the AFK scripting policy still in place and ACTIVELY being enforced? I have noticed even moreso than usual that there is blatant, long term afk scripting going on in the game...and honestly it is frustrating because those folks blast past my characters in terms of circle and skill because I actually earn my abilities.
Has the policy changed, or reached a point where the GMs don't even care to enforce it any more?
As an example...there is someone who has been unresponsive, AFK for nearly a week now over near the rangers guild...learning tons of experience with no apparent repercussions. Every few minutes they log off and immediately back on, assuming to prevent some tracking mechanisms that might catch them.
I play off and on throughout the day and night, and the person in my example has been unresponsive every time I have gone there...for several days...teaching the same class...spamcasting the same spell. Its not right that they can basically cheat their way to astronomical skill levels while other folks actually play the game and work to get their abilities.
I have nothing against using scripts, I use several myself. I do have a problem with people who game the system...and especially when they do it so blatantly and long term.
If the scripting policy has changed and prime has basically merged with the fallen, please let me know so I can act accordingly.
I know who you're talking about, but does this really matter any more for 90% of the game?
> Its not right that they can basically cheat their way to astronomical skill levels while other folks actually play the game and work to get their abilities.
Take this, for example. Who cares? If you're just playing the game then treat them like one of the dozens of NPCs you ignore on regular basis. I mean, look at your guild leaders. They've sat in the same spot, teaching more or less the same skills, for decades.
Humor aside, the ranges are so spread out, and it literally takes years or decades to cover that gap. After which, the person you're chasing has zoomed years past you again. Play the game as a game. Let others play it as well so long as they aren't disrupting the environment with higher than normal amounts of scroll or abusive behavior.
> Its not right that they can basically cheat their way to astronomical skill levels while other folks actually play the game and work to get their abilities.
Take this, for example. Who cares? If you're just playing the game then treat them like one of the dozens of NPCs you ignore on regular basis. I mean, look at your guild leaders. They've sat in the same spot, teaching more or less the same skills, for decades.
Humor aside, the ranges are so spread out, and it literally takes years or decades to cover that gap. After which, the person you're chasing has zoomed years past you again. Play the game as a game. Let others play it as well so long as they aren't disrupting the environment with higher than normal amounts of scroll or abusive behavior.
It's worth remembering that someone not responding to you != not responsive to GMs.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>Play the game as a game. Let others play it as well so long as they aren't disrupting the environment with higher than normal amounts of scroll or abusive behavior.
The biggest problem I have with it is this...those people who do the whole long term non-adventure adventure of super scripting usually end up doing one of two really annoying things.
--They wake up super powerful and act like total losers/jerks.
--They wake up super powerful and sell the character on drhighlevelcharactersales.com to someone else who is loser/jerk.
Anyways, my overall point is...if afk scripting is the new normal then everyone should know that and be allowed to profit from it if they so choose. If its still an actual breach of policy it should be enforced more heavily than it is.
The fact that you know exactly who I am talking about says everything that needs to be said about the current policy enforcement.
The biggest problem I have with it is this...those people who do the whole long term non-adventure adventure of super scripting usually end up doing one of two really annoying things.
--They wake up super powerful and act like total losers/jerks.
--They wake up super powerful and sell the character on drhighlevelcharactersales.com to someone else who is loser/jerk.
Anyways, my overall point is...if afk scripting is the new normal then everyone should know that and be allowed to profit from it if they so choose. If its still an actual breach of policy it should be enforced more heavily than it is.
The fact that you know exactly who I am talking about says everything that needs to be said about the current policy enforcement.
> act like total losers/jerks.
That's a completely different problem and not one tied to scripting.
> --They wake up super powerful and sell the character on drhighlevelcharactersales.com to someone else who is loser/jerk.
If someone wants to buy a character then there are usually people willing to sell it to them. Characters that already exist. Characters that already change hands, a lot.
> The fact that you know exactly who I am talking about says everything that needs to be said about the current policy enforcement.
We can draw implications, but we don't anything about current policy enforcement. We don't know how this player is interacting with GMs, how many people are playing the character, or how many screens they're watching (and refusing to interact with). All it tells us is that someone is non-interacting while sitting in the same spot for day on end.
AFK is certainly not allowed, they still check people and the punishments are still severe, its a massive risk and one not worth taking IMO. I actually think the punishment is still far to punitive for the crime, but that is just me.
As to the sale/jerk stuff, that is harder to quantify and I'm not sure its a binary option. Most HLCs get sold to plat farmers whom while they tend to distort and ruin the economy, they are generally harmless in terms of day to day jerkness.
In regards specifically to the economy it is a game that has been around long enough that its pretty much ruined anyway so again, hand waves all around.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
As to the sale/jerk stuff, that is harder to quantify and I'm not sure its a binary option. Most HLCs get sold to plat farmers whom while they tend to distort and ruin the economy, they are generally harmless in terms of day to day jerkness.
In regards specifically to the economy it is a game that has been around long enough that its pretty much ruined anyway so again, hand waves all around.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>Derium: Take this, for example. Who cares? If you're just playing the game then treat them like one of the dozens of NPCs you ignore on regular basis. . . . Play the game as a game. Let others play it as well so long as they aren't disrupting the environment with higher than normal amounts of scroll or abusive behavior.
While I understand the "live for yourself" appeal that you are making, the effects of AFK scripting are not limited to the players who are AFK scripting.
Effects on the Role-playing Environment
Let's start with the obvious. As has already been noted, AFK scripting is detrimental to the quality of experience. While not everyone wants to role-play or socialize all the time, the interactive nature of the game is one of the main features that draw players back to Prime.
Policy Note on 09/05/2013 05:16 PM EDT
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/DragonRealms%20Policy%20Discussions/Scripting%20policy/view/1136
Earlier today, a person noted to me that the scripting policy was "ridiculous" in that many of the activities need to be scripted to advance. We do not name people, so who it was is irrelevant. What is relevant is the following. DragonRealms is first and foremost a role-playing game. Removal of the rule would result in the prime instance of the game turning into The Fallen, with combat and language restriction, destroying the role-playing aspects within a matter of days if not minutes.
Having discussed this with people, both in the game and at billing (why people come back and keep playing), the primary reason is the role-playing environment. Far from being "ridiculous" the rule is essential in keeping DragonRealms operating. Without that environment, people do not stay and they do not return.
Effects on Competition
DragonRealms has competitive aspects (such as PvP, renown scrolls, and prestige boards) that some players truly enjoy. Those who play by the rules are at a severe disadvantage when compared to those who are AFK scripting with impunity. (As an aside, I would love to see a policy where those who are under a current scripting warning are removed from all renown scrolls for the duration of the warning.)
Effects on Skill/Stat Checks
Even if you do not care about the competitive aspects of the game, rank and stat bloat due to long-term AFK scripting affects us all, because skill, stat, and experience benchmarks are not chosen in a vacuum. GMs consider factors like how many ranks characters should be expected to have in a skill and how long it should take to get there via "normal playing."
GMs have acknowledged that skill checks are adjusted upwards when "the average is hundreds of ranks ahead of where we expected it to be." This places honest players who play for a "normal" length of time at a disadvantage, because the skill and stat checks are artificially high in order to account for rank bloat.
Effects on the Game Economy
AFK scripting also contributes to currency inflation. The law of supply and demand applies to money. As the money supply grows, the in-game currency depreciates. Again, this affects the honest players (who earn their own plats while paying attention to the game), because prices are driven up as a result of plat farming. This is most obvious during auctions, but it happens on a smaller scale in player-owned shops every day.
AFK mining/lumberjacking (and AFK scripting festival games that award rare materials) cause problems as well. The market is flooded with more rare materials than the GMs intended, causing GMs to consider shutting off the supply for a while, adding material sinks to maintain rare-material equipment, or nerfing the items made from those materials.
"We have had many 10's of thousands of volume of rare metals get mined in the last 2-3 years (not counting festivals, quests and other avenues of acquiring them). That is sufficient material for every logged in player to own a full set of armor and a few weapons... my concern is more that the situation can only get worse without a sink in place." --DR Kodius (11/22/2013)
Effects on Development and Game Balance
In addition to the effects that players experience, rank and stat bloat also make it harder for GMs who are developing such systems.
For example, GM Raesh has recently noted that it is hard to assign an appropriate weight to stats: "It is extremely hard to predict even a rough range for a player's stats as they progress through the game which makes maintaining balance in some systems (Particularly combat and SvS) very problematic at high levels."
Similar issues apply to skills. For example, when GMs were deciding whether to count Vocals toward the Performance skill during Skills 3.0, one thing they had to consider was that the majority of characters had high ranks in Vocals. (As with Performance, this skill was primarily trained for TDPs, and since it was so easy to train by humming, nearly everyone did.) This presented GMs with a problem: if they let Vocals merge into Performance, most characters would have high ranks, and GMs would have to design any future Performance skill checks with that in mind. Ultimately, GMs chose not to count Vocals (for non-Bards) and instead rolled those ranks into the Lore bonus pool. However, thanks largely to zills, GMs who develop for the Performance skill are facing the same prospect.
A post by GM Raesh that discusses some of these issues:
Re: TDPs again ::NUDGE:: on 04/26/2016 09:55 PM EDT
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/5364
>>With all of the unfinished projects already in process and the promises of rewrites that haven't even begun yet why is there a desire to start yet another project before those are resolved? Lots of system developments have been discussed that players have been waiting for for years and they don't feel any closer to coming to fruition.
This is a very foundational thing - a lot of the projects you're speaking to rest on it and we rather make sure the foundation is solid rather the build on it and be forced to redo those projects down the line
And I assure you, the existing system creates some very real problems all over in development.
For example:
Performance is, I think we all agree, a very underwhelming skill. Lots of people train it (I'm looking at you zills). Is it because their character wants to be good at performance? Is it because they value what those ranks let them do? In most cases, no. They do it because it generates TDPs and is easy to do. (See pre 3.0 humming.)
So what impact does that have on development? Well, for one, we're pushed to try and make the skill worthwhile vs feeling like we can leave it as a flavorful optional skill that only some people pick up. (I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see an awesome performance system, I'm saying that the current system pulls us towards needing to develop performance sooner rather then later). But... then we discover everyone has a ton of ranks in performance. This significantly impacts how we develop the system as we're making a system for a warped environment.
The classic example is SvS and critter development. It's EXTREMELY hard to develop high level creatures that aren't either just murderbots or xp pinatas because of stat issues, and SvS spells are all over the map as far as their usefulness. A very concrete example of a design space I'd love to work on for magic (or magic related systems such as the Paladin overhaul) is debilitation attacks that can cause damage. The skill is trained only in combat so, generally speaking, it fills the lethal TM mandate from years ago (Though I still would need approval by the SGMs to do this) and there's lots of offensive spell concepts that fit into this sort of attack that don't fit into TM. (Bonegrinder is an example, an old spell that was designed to cause your bones to explode causing internal damage). However, I'm extremely reluctant to do this as I can't count on the spell being predictably balanced - it's going to absolutely murder some people and do nothing to others and this becomes an extreme concern as creatures and players approach the 100+ stat cliffs.
Another fact of the existing system is we're constantly being forced to underweight stats in systems because their values are so swingy or you end up with systems that favor stats strongly at the low end and skill strongly at the high end.
Picture, for example, a system where a stat = 5 skill points vs one where a stat = 2 skill points. Both exist and both cause very different curves. The first your stats are EXTREMELY important until you get into 100s of ranks at which point they become somewhere less important. At the other end you end up with stats that just don't do much, and certainly don't feel like they do anything when you have 1000 ranks.
And don't even get me started on using stats as multipliers - when you have to realistically consider a range of 10-100+ for a stat? The most common solution is a sort of awkward stair-step function.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
While I understand the "live for yourself" appeal that you are making, the effects of AFK scripting are not limited to the players who are AFK scripting.
Effects on the Role-playing Environment
Let's start with the obvious. As has already been noted, AFK scripting is detrimental to the quality of experience. While not everyone wants to role-play or socialize all the time, the interactive nature of the game is one of the main features that draw players back to Prime.
Policy Note on 09/05/2013 05:16 PM EDT
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/DragonRealms%20Policy%20Discussions/Scripting%20policy/view/1136
Earlier today, a person noted to me that the scripting policy was "ridiculous" in that many of the activities need to be scripted to advance. We do not name people, so who it was is irrelevant. What is relevant is the following. DragonRealms is first and foremost a role-playing game. Removal of the rule would result in the prime instance of the game turning into The Fallen, with combat and language restriction, destroying the role-playing aspects within a matter of days if not minutes.
Having discussed this with people, both in the game and at billing (why people come back and keep playing), the primary reason is the role-playing environment. Far from being "ridiculous" the rule is essential in keeping DragonRealms operating. Without that environment, people do not stay and they do not return.
Effects on Competition
DragonRealms has competitive aspects (such as PvP, renown scrolls, and prestige boards) that some players truly enjoy. Those who play by the rules are at a severe disadvantage when compared to those who are AFK scripting with impunity. (As an aside, I would love to see a policy where those who are under a current scripting warning are removed from all renown scrolls for the duration of the warning.)
Effects on Skill/Stat Checks
Even if you do not care about the competitive aspects of the game, rank and stat bloat due to long-term AFK scripting affects us all, because skill, stat, and experience benchmarks are not chosen in a vacuum. GMs consider factors like how many ranks characters should be expected to have in a skill and how long it should take to get there via "normal playing."
GMs have acknowledged that skill checks are adjusted upwards when "the average is hundreds of ranks ahead of where we expected it to be." This places honest players who play for a "normal" length of time at a disadvantage, because the skill and stat checks are artificially high in order to account for rank bloat.
Effects on the Game Economy
AFK scripting also contributes to currency inflation. The law of supply and demand applies to money. As the money supply grows, the in-game currency depreciates. Again, this affects the honest players (who earn their own plats while paying attention to the game), because prices are driven up as a result of plat farming. This is most obvious during auctions, but it happens on a smaller scale in player-owned shops every day.
AFK mining/lumberjacking (and AFK scripting festival games that award rare materials) cause problems as well. The market is flooded with more rare materials than the GMs intended, causing GMs to consider shutting off the supply for a while, adding material sinks to maintain rare-material equipment, or nerfing the items made from those materials.
"We have had many 10's of thousands of volume of rare metals get mined in the last 2-3 years (not counting festivals, quests and other avenues of acquiring them). That is sufficient material for every logged in player to own a full set of armor and a few weapons... my concern is more that the situation can only get worse without a sink in place." --DR Kodius (11/22/2013)
Effects on Development and Game Balance
In addition to the effects that players experience, rank and stat bloat also make it harder for GMs who are developing such systems.
For example, GM Raesh has recently noted that it is hard to assign an appropriate weight to stats: "It is extremely hard to predict even a rough range for a player's stats as they progress through the game which makes maintaining balance in some systems (Particularly combat and SvS) very problematic at high levels."
Similar issues apply to skills. For example, when GMs were deciding whether to count Vocals toward the Performance skill during Skills 3.0, one thing they had to consider was that the majority of characters had high ranks in Vocals. (As with Performance, this skill was primarily trained for TDPs, and since it was so easy to train by humming, nearly everyone did.) This presented GMs with a problem: if they let Vocals merge into Performance, most characters would have high ranks, and GMs would have to design any future Performance skill checks with that in mind. Ultimately, GMs chose not to count Vocals (for non-Bards) and instead rolled those ranks into the Lore bonus pool. However, thanks largely to zills, GMs who develop for the Performance skill are facing the same prospect.
A post by GM Raesh that discusses some of these issues:
Re: TDPs again ::NUDGE:: on 04/26/2016 09:55 PM EDT
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/5364
>>With all of the unfinished projects already in process and the promises of rewrites that haven't even begun yet why is there a desire to start yet another project before those are resolved? Lots of system developments have been discussed that players have been waiting for for years and they don't feel any closer to coming to fruition.
This is a very foundational thing - a lot of the projects you're speaking to rest on it and we rather make sure the foundation is solid rather the build on it and be forced to redo those projects down the line
And I assure you, the existing system creates some very real problems all over in development.
For example:
Performance is, I think we all agree, a very underwhelming skill. Lots of people train it (I'm looking at you zills). Is it because their character wants to be good at performance? Is it because they value what those ranks let them do? In most cases, no. They do it because it generates TDPs and is easy to do. (See pre 3.0 humming.)
So what impact does that have on development? Well, for one, we're pushed to try and make the skill worthwhile vs feeling like we can leave it as a flavorful optional skill that only some people pick up. (I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see an awesome performance system, I'm saying that the current system pulls us towards needing to develop performance sooner rather then later). But... then we discover everyone has a ton of ranks in performance. This significantly impacts how we develop the system as we're making a system for a warped environment.
The classic example is SvS and critter development. It's EXTREMELY hard to develop high level creatures that aren't either just murderbots or xp pinatas because of stat issues, and SvS spells are all over the map as far as their usefulness. A very concrete example of a design space I'd love to work on for magic (or magic related systems such as the Paladin overhaul) is debilitation attacks that can cause damage. The skill is trained only in combat so, generally speaking, it fills the lethal TM mandate from years ago (Though I still would need approval by the SGMs to do this) and there's lots of offensive spell concepts that fit into this sort of attack that don't fit into TM. (Bonegrinder is an example, an old spell that was designed to cause your bones to explode causing internal damage). However, I'm extremely reluctant to do this as I can't count on the spell being predictably balanced - it's going to absolutely murder some people and do nothing to others and this becomes an extreme concern as creatures and players approach the 100+ stat cliffs.
Another fact of the existing system is we're constantly being forced to underweight stats in systems because their values are so swingy or you end up with systems that favor stats strongly at the low end and skill strongly at the high end.
Picture, for example, a system where a stat = 5 skill points vs one where a stat = 2 skill points. Both exist and both cause very different curves. The first your stats are EXTREMELY important until you get into 100s of ranks at which point they become somewhere less important. At the other end you end up with stats that just don't do much, and certainly don't feel like they do anything when you have 1000 ranks.
And don't even get me started on using stats as multipliers - when you have to realistically consider a range of 10-100+ for a stat? The most common solution is a sort of awkward stair-step function.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
I agree with a lot of what you said, at least to some extent, but:
>>For example, GM Raesh has recently noted that it is hard to assign an appropriate weight to stats: "It is extremely hard to predict even a rough range for a player's stats as they progress through the game which makes maintaining balance in some systems (Particularly combat and SvS) very problematic at high levels.
This has nothing to do with AFK scripting, it has to do with effort and depth of training. For instance, I am 100% at the keys, and my most recent character I am playing is encroaching 5k total ranks at 19th circle, allowing a bit of a TDP jump for his size. As well, as people prioritize different stats, for instance, things can vary greatly. Imagine Moon Mage A wants to train all weapons and armors, Moon Mage B does not. Moon Mage A will have to place a much higher value in strength, stamina, and to an extent agility right out of the gate, causing their stats overall to be more balanced. Moon Mage B doesn't have the necessity to invest so heavily in the physical stats, and might leave them at near minimum while going ham on their mentals, thus causing a drastically different result in SVS spells at similar circles.
I agree, blatant AFK scripting in prime is definitely a concern, but lets not start lighting false fires and blame them for killing Jesus, too, while we're at it.
> RP Environment
This one I understand. I get why someone wants to walk into a room and see someone else. They want to talk, and they want someone to immediately interact with them. With multi-boxers, that's not always reasonable, but it's still pretty good. I do worry that the game could quickly depopulate to plat levels if someone was required to be 100% responsive on all accounts within, say a minute, of being asked a question (and people do run off after less than that citing non-responsiveness).
> DragonRealms has competitive aspects
That's what I meant by 90% of the game. A great majority of characters are already locked out of these competitions. The top end, sure. I get it. That's a 3rd rail of sorts. Any character below 175, or even 150? Meh. They can already be one-shot, and they're decades away from any competition, assuming the HLCs are retired rather than sold.
> Effects on Skill/Stat Checks
See above. The game has expanded such that it expects you to have years of in game time in your character before it's at the point of capping out. In. Game. Time. What used to be capped out at 120 ranks now goes all the way to 1750. I think that's good for the life of the game, but the scripters/sellers/multi-boxers/multi-player characters have already pushed the game out beyond what a casual player could cap.
> Effects on the Game Economy
Come on now. The damage is already done. It's a natural attrition for a game where coins only change hands without any meaningful drains. Especially for players who have scripted for years (and I'm not talking about just AFK). Of the few drains, the price cap is already well beyond the price point of anyone who hasn't been playing for years or buys the plat. The exception is player made gear, but that's mostly kept at reasonable levels by community consensus.
> Effects on Development and Game Balance
See skill/stat checks. Balance feels targeted towards ~1000 ranks.
I do get what you're saying, and I think you have good arguments for the game as it was about 15 years ago. I think the game has moved on since then. It's mostly self-made goals, the odd new mechanic, the occasional event, and collecting now a days.
>>Derium: The game has expanded such that it expects you to have years of in game time in your character before it's at the point of capping out. In. Game. Time. What used to be capped out at 120 ranks now goes all the way to 1750. I think that's good for the life of the game . . . Balance feels targeted towards ~1000 ranks.
That's what I am getting at. Many of the game's skill benchmarks seem like they were designed around people who play DR like a full-time job. (Of course, there is a lot of legitimate rank gain, but there's no question that long-term AFK scripting causes faster growth in the game's "averages," skewing balance for everyone.)
>>Derium: Come on now. The damage is already done. It's a natural attrition for a game where coins only change hands without any meaningful drains.
The damage is already done and yet continues to be done. If it were not an ongoing problem, you would not see a continual increase in the mean and median auction prices.
Considering only demand (what is there to spend money on) without considering supply (how much money is being added to the game) provides an incomplete picture. I only mentioned supply here, because that is the only aspect that is relevant to the discussion of how AFK scripting affects the game. (AFK scripting allows you to play longer than you would if you were paying attention the whole time, which increases the amount of money that is being generated on a daily basis. The more money there is, the less it is worth, and prices adjust accordingly.)
>>Derium: The game has expanded such that it expects you to have years of in game time in your character before it's at the point of capping out. In. Game. Time. What used to be capped out at 120 ranks now goes all the way to 1750. I think that's good for the life of the game
Getting off topic, but: while it's good for long-time players to have something to work toward, the extraordinarily long growth arc of this game makes it harder to attract and retain new players. (There are characters who are literally old enough to vote.) GMs have acknowledged this, as seen in some recent discussions where GMs were trying to determine what is "normal play" and as part of an effort to reduce the barrier to entry for new players.
Re: Development update request on 02/17/2016 02:00 AM EST
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/4984
I dislike the ability to equate DragonRealms to work. I have recently taken to calling it "a video game" frequently because I want to focus on this idea that DragonRealms is, as some of you have reminded me this evening, a game. It's supposed to be fun. If we're thinking in terms of investment, time spent in, and other terms I usually use to describe my social security pay-in, we've long since lost that mark.
Do I want to let people reach their max effectiveness without the same hours put in? Yes. I want to reduce the barrier of entry, as someone earlier put it. I absolutely want to make it so that people don't feel compelled to, here we go again with work-speak, put in long hours to see a profit.
Long ago, the GM that hired me told me I should now consider DragonRealms my primary avocation. I gotta admit that I've seen some of you playing and it worries me that I've been party to building a game that prompts people to put in more than I did for my actual job.
Re: Experience Pool Size - Bug Fix on 12/19/2015 06:14 PM EST
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/4791
Here's some context, and this is just theoretical numbers right now.
After a brief discussion on this we tentatively kinda-sorta-maybe figure that it'd be good if a character reaches endgame in 2 years of normal play. Faster and slower is possible, but an average of two years sounded good to us for now.
This, of course, also depends on us creating an endgame. We have ideas there too, but nothing worth salivating over yet.
That is the goal I'd like to eventually like to reach and the yardstick we've created that I measure fast/slow by.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
That's what I am getting at. Many of the game's skill benchmarks seem like they were designed around people who play DR like a full-time job. (Of course, there is a lot of legitimate rank gain, but there's no question that long-term AFK scripting causes faster growth in the game's "averages," skewing balance for everyone.)
>>Derium: Come on now. The damage is already done. It's a natural attrition for a game where coins only change hands without any meaningful drains.
The damage is already done and yet continues to be done. If it were not an ongoing problem, you would not see a continual increase in the mean and median auction prices.
Considering only demand (what is there to spend money on) without considering supply (how much money is being added to the game) provides an incomplete picture. I only mentioned supply here, because that is the only aspect that is relevant to the discussion of how AFK scripting affects the game. (AFK scripting allows you to play longer than you would if you were paying attention the whole time, which increases the amount of money that is being generated on a daily basis. The more money there is, the less it is worth, and prices adjust accordingly.)
>>Derium: The game has expanded such that it expects you to have years of in game time in your character before it's at the point of capping out. In. Game. Time. What used to be capped out at 120 ranks now goes all the way to 1750. I think that's good for the life of the game
Getting off topic, but: while it's good for long-time players to have something to work toward, the extraordinarily long growth arc of this game makes it harder to attract and retain new players. (There are characters who are literally old enough to vote.) GMs have acknowledged this, as seen in some recent discussions where GMs were trying to determine what is "normal play" and as part of an effort to reduce the barrier to entry for new players.
Re: Development update request on 02/17/2016 02:00 AM EST
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/4984
I dislike the ability to equate DragonRealms to work. I have recently taken to calling it "a video game" frequently because I want to focus on this idea that DragonRealms is, as some of you have reminded me this evening, a game. It's supposed to be fun. If we're thinking in terms of investment, time spent in, and other terms I usually use to describe my social security pay-in, we've long since lost that mark.
Do I want to let people reach their max effectiveness without the same hours put in? Yes. I want to reduce the barrier of entry, as someone earlier put it. I absolutely want to make it so that people don't feel compelled to, here we go again with work-speak, put in long hours to see a profit.
Long ago, the GM that hired me told me I should now consider DragonRealms my primary avocation. I gotta admit that I've seen some of you playing and it worries me that I've been party to building a game that prompts people to put in more than I did for my actual job.
Re: Experience Pool Size - Bug Fix on 12/19/2015 06:14 PM EST
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/4791
Here's some context, and this is just theoretical numbers right now.
After a brief discussion on this we tentatively kinda-sorta-maybe figure that it'd be good if a character reaches endgame in 2 years of normal play. Faster and slower is possible, but an average of two years sounded good to us for now.
This, of course, also depends on us creating an endgame. We have ideas there too, but nothing worth salivating over yet.
That is the goal I'd like to eventually like to reach and the yardstick we've created that I measure fast/slow by.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
>After a brief discussion on this we tentatively kinda-sorta-maybe figure that it'd be good if a character reaches endgame in 2 years of normal play. Faster and slower is possible, but an average of two years sounded good to us for now.
I feel the skillcaps are far too high to try and argue that people shouldn't script. There isn't a way in hell anyone is reaching 1750 ranks of a skill in 2 years.
I think this is one of Dragonrealms biggest issues truthfully (yes, worse than the slow dev curve even), that players are spread over such an insanely wide span of skill ranks. I don't care if the grind is a couple of years long, but all notions of PvP or a game wherein a sizeable percentage of the population has literally over a thousand ranks of combat skills over those who haven't been grinding/scripting for as long a period of time must be thrown out the window. People asked for 'end game' over and over and over, asking to extent the skill ranks and make tougher and bigger critters to hunt, and this is what such a request gets you.
And you want to talk about the games economy? Dragonrealms isn't a pay to win enterprise, but all the top gear is locked behind pay for quests, or grinding for hours at gambling events at fests. I don't care if none of my characters are in all damite with tyrium weapons, but frankly, coins mean nothing either, because again, issues of scales. I don't really think that's as problematic, but pay for quests and fests are not solving the problem.
I feel the skillcaps are far too high to try and argue that people shouldn't script. There isn't a way in hell anyone is reaching 1750 ranks of a skill in 2 years.
I think this is one of Dragonrealms biggest issues truthfully (yes, worse than the slow dev curve even), that players are spread over such an insanely wide span of skill ranks. I don't care if the grind is a couple of years long, but all notions of PvP or a game wherein a sizeable percentage of the population has literally over a thousand ranks of combat skills over those who haven't been grinding/scripting for as long a period of time must be thrown out the window. People asked for 'end game' over and over and over, asking to extent the skill ranks and make tougher and bigger critters to hunt, and this is what such a request gets you.
And you want to talk about the games economy? Dragonrealms isn't a pay to win enterprise, but all the top gear is locked behind pay for quests, or grinding for hours at gambling events at fests. I don't care if none of my characters are in all damite with tyrium weapons, but frankly, coins mean nothing either, because again, issues of scales. I don't really think that's as problematic, but pay for quests and fests are not solving the problem.
> pay for quests and fests are not solving the problem.
I think they're solving this problem, but (and I'm not opening this can of worms) can lead into others. I greatly enjoy quests, both the play and the reward. It gives me access to gear I could otherwise never afford with in game currency, but I've also used it as a way to get the in game currency via selling rewards when all I wanted was the experience. It's not a perfect system, but it's good.
Per your point though, yes. Other than needing to find one of the handful of crafters who can use the rare material, all top-end gear requires real-world purchases via fests or quests. Even the fluff auction was tens of thousands of plats for each unique or worthwhile item. New players are years away from that kind of earning potential, without dropping a significant amount of cash on other characters/farmers.
>It gives me access to gear I could otherwise never afford with in game currency
Yes, but your capacity to purchase it with dollars is a serious issue, especially given then how easy it is for you to convert that gear into in game platinums. I know many a player who ground quests to accumulate gear, and then sold that gear for plats. It's been a well discussed issue in the game actually, people exploiting quests for this purpose. Pay for quests/fests are, in my opinion, the second biggest issue plaguing the game. They make an easy and direct route for people to convert dollars into platinums, and furthermore this just depresses the value of crafting mats.
>New players are years away from that kind of earning potential, without dropping a significant amount of cash on other characters/farmers.
But nothing is blocking new characters from having that kind of coin, given all they have to do is buy it. Furthermore there is no skill or circle requirement on gear. The plat sinks of the fests are a good idea in theory, but they're bandaids for a bigger set of problems.
>I feel the skillcaps are far too high to try and argue that people shouldn't script. There isn't a way in hell anyone is reaching 1750 ranks of a skill in 2 years.
Why would you want to hit the skillcap? The only gameplay DR supports at the skillcap is deleting your character.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Why would you want to hit the skillcap? The only gameplay DR supports at the skillcap is deleting your character.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
>>Why would you want to hit the skillcap? The only gameplay DR supports at the skillcap is deleting your character.
Except for the multitude of characters with some (quite a few) capped skills that still actively play, or are bought and sold (some frequently). There is definitely a place for capped characters in the game. This is primarily a roleplaying environment, after all, and you don't cap ranks in roleplay.
> I know many a player who ground quests to accumulate gear, and then sold that gear for plats.
What is the alternative if they want to enter the system? Player auctions are mostly in the realm of hundreds of platinum. Crafted weapons or other important gear can take you into the thousands. Unique weapons or highly desired items will take you into the realm of tens of thousands. It would take the new player years before they caught up in the current system, or even reached the point that they could start accumulating this.
Even if you capped money generation, those with coins now have such a lead that a new player could and would never be able to enter the market.
The game has been around a long time. It has been years since you dropped all of your coins at a single fest for something anyone could buy, and there is no way for new players to enter the market without introducing new currencies (real world or not). However, the game has a lot of old-time players that would (understandably) revolt if they lost their seat on the king of the hill.
> The plat sinks of the fests are a good idea in theory, but they're bandaids for a bigger set of problems.
I agree that there needs to be more consistent plat sinks, but it also needs to scale with your level or else you'll eventually get back to the point that we're in now. Income greatly exceeds expenses, to the point of literally breaking the game when your bank balance gets too high (didn't that happen recently?).
Personally I like the fact that "capping" a character or getting close takes many many many years. It adds something special to dragonrealms that is unique. Someone once said dragonrealms is like a fine wine. Dragonrealms for me is the journey and never has been about the destination.
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>Personally I like the fact that "capping" a character or getting close takes many many many years. It adds something special to dragonrealms that is unique. Someone once said dragonrealms is like a fine wine. Dragonrealms for me is the journey and never has been about the destination.
I think that's entirely valid, though I'll point out that I've definitely spoken with you specifically on these forums about how broken PvP is at higher ranges, specifically because of how rank disparities override any sort of actual checks and balances built into the system. I absolutely can relate to the funsies that is seeing the numbers get bigger, and don't think there's anything wrong with someone who finds that to be the best part of the game. The problem, I feel, is how that doesn't translate to other parts of the game with respect to balance.
Personally, I wish development had been in the vein of improving group combat and mixing up the grind, instead of continually pushing the numbers higher and higher, and adding different critters to make that climb possible.
>>Personally I like the fact that "capping" a character or getting close takes many many many years. It adds something special to dragonrealms that is unique. Someone once said dragonrealms is like a fine wine. Dragonrealms for me is the journey and never has been about the destination.<<
This is exactly how I fee. I don't think I'd find Dragonrealms very interesting if I could conquer everything super fast and easily. I like that different players can make names for themselves specializing in x, y, or z. I like that you weirdos blow all your money on pigs and kittens. I like that you can spend money to go on quests and win gear that is a bit more unique than what can just be banged out in a forge, etc. The longevity and near endless options of what to do (including RPing) makes this game "magical" compared to a lot of other games... for me, anyway.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
This is exactly how I fee. I don't think I'd find Dragonrealms very interesting if I could conquer everything super fast and easily. I like that different players can make names for themselves specializing in x, y, or z. I like that you weirdos blow all your money on pigs and kittens. I like that you can spend money to go on quests and win gear that is a bit more unique than what can just be banged out in a forge, etc. The longevity and near endless options of what to do (including RPing) makes this game "magical" compared to a lot of other games... for me, anyway.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
> I think that's entirely valid, though I'll point out that I've definitely spoken with you specifically on these forums about how broken PvP is at higher ranges, specifically because of how rank disparities override any sort of actual checks and balances built into the system.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to make PvP cap out. Attacks against players could use a maximum of 100 ranks and 20 in each stat. That would effectively end the skills-based arms race, the ability for people to be jerks just because they've been around longer, and make it easier to balance by assuming everyone has their PvP skills capped out. You could still give a fraction of a percentage for increased skills, to the tune of 5-10% difference between 100 and 1750 (on a diminishing returns scale) to reward increased time without making it impossible for new players to interact with.
This (ideally) wouldn't have any impact on PVE. Maybe make it the defacto standard for quests though.
LOL there is nothing keeping anyone from PvPing now... other than the desire to not lose. I can see all kinds of things going wrong with an idea like this. If I was one of these "jerks," I'd definitely be taking advantage of a few days work to beast out at 100ish ranks and 20s stats and go to town causing all kinds of headaches for people.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
I always thought a neat idea would to have some type of arena area where you go through and everyone is PVP open and stats and ranks are set to some number.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
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>>You could still give a fraction of a percentage for increased skills, to the tune of 5-10% difference between 100 and 1750 (on a diminishing returns scale) to reward increased time without making it impossible for new players to interact with.
You realize this "simple fix" involves rescaling stats, rescaling experience, rescaling all creatures? To be frank, this sounds like a pipe dream.
>>Personally I like the fact that "capping" a character or getting close takes many many many years. It adds something special to dragonrealms that is unique. Someone once said dragonrealms is like a fine wine. Dragonrealms for me is the journey and never has been about the destination.<<
>>>>This is exactly how I fee. I don't think I'd find Dragonrealms very interesting if I could conquer everything super fast and easily.
This. Also agree.
I think always catering to the lowest common denominator in making the game easier and easier has chased players away rather than aided in customer retention, but I've always been outspoken about wanting more risk in the game (return of walking the road, return of equipment destruction, etc). I think risk breeds mindfulness, and more effort in the characters we play.
Becoming more and more like an MMO with a short timeline and no risk is just going to cycle the current players out of the player base by invalidating their hard work, with no guarantee of new players to replace them.
Every game will have power gamers. Facts of life. I don't see the wisdom in sounding the death knell for their desired gameplay (this applies to the TDP discussion as well), but I am perhaps biased.
- Tyrun, player of
You realize this "simple fix" involves rescaling stats, rescaling experience, rescaling all creatures? To be frank, this sounds like a pipe dream.
>>Personally I like the fact that "capping" a character or getting close takes many many many years. It adds something special to dragonrealms that is unique. Someone once said dragonrealms is like a fine wine. Dragonrealms for me is the journey and never has been about the destination.<<
>>>>This is exactly how I fee. I don't think I'd find Dragonrealms very interesting if I could conquer everything super fast and easily.
This. Also agree.
I think always catering to the lowest common denominator in making the game easier and easier has chased players away rather than aided in customer retention, but I've always been outspoken about wanting more risk in the game (return of walking the road, return of equipment destruction, etc). I think risk breeds mindfulness, and more effort in the characters we play.
Becoming more and more like an MMO with a short timeline and no risk is just going to cycle the current players out of the player base by invalidating their hard work, with no guarantee of new players to replace them.
Every game will have power gamers. Facts of life. I don't see the wisdom in sounding the death knell for their desired gameplay (this applies to the TDP discussion as well), but I am perhaps biased.
- Tyrun, player of
>I think always catering to the lowest common denominator in making the game easier and easier has chased players away rather than aided in customer retention, but I've always been outspoken about wanting more risk in the game (return of walking the road, return of equipment destruction, etc). I think risk breeds mindfulness, and more effort in the characters we play.
Your version of risk, and let's be blunt, amounts to zero. The stary road wasn't a risk, it was a drama factory. No one walked without deliberate intent. The possible permanent loss of items simply meant they got vaulted. We've been down that road, and it didn't produce the results you desire. People instead took active measures to avoid those factors entirely, leaving us in a situation basically where we are now anyway.
Your version of risk, and let's be blunt, amounts to zero. The stary road wasn't a risk, it was a drama factory. No one walked without deliberate intent. The possible permanent loss of items simply meant they got vaulted. We've been down that road, and it didn't produce the results you desire. People instead took active measures to avoid those factors entirely, leaving us in a situation basically where we are now anyway.
>>LOL there is nothing keeping anyone from PvPing now... other than the desire to not lose. <<
Which is sort of a big deal, dude. =P If people don't think they have at least a chance of winning they won't engage in the first place, which is what they mostly do now.
>>I can see all kinds of things going wrong with an idea like this. If I was one of these "jerks," I'd definitely be taking advantage of a few days work to beast out at 100ish ranks and 20s stats and go to town causing all kinds of headaches for people. <<
Meh, though? There's still Policy. You can't really cause grief for anyone who doesn't open themselves to it on some level.
Mazrian
Which is sort of a big deal, dude. =P If people don't think they have at least a chance of winning they won't engage in the first place, which is what they mostly do now.
>>I can see all kinds of things going wrong with an idea like this. If I was one of these "jerks," I'd definitely be taking advantage of a few days work to beast out at 100ish ranks and 20s stats and go to town causing all kinds of headaches for people. <<
Meh, though? There's still Policy. You can't really cause grief for anyone who doesn't open themselves to it on some level.
Mazrian
>>You can't really cause grief for anyone who doesn't open themselves to it on some level.
I mean, this statement is astounding from someone that has been around as long as you. I seem to remember plenty of grief over a mirror blade, not all that long ago. Dumbing down pvp so someone can grind up and be on even grounds with someone that put years of effort in with a week of work is pretty crazy.
If the dev effort were there to create a scaling system that made the rank gaps still present but overall less effective that might be one thing, but what you are suggesting will literally create more problems than it will solve. It would be far to simple to grind up a 100 rank character with the intent of throwing it away just to go on a murder spree with no regards for policy.
>>Your version of risk, and let's be blunt, amounts to zero. The stary road wasn't a risk, it was a drama factory. No one walked without deliberate intent. The possible permanent loss of items simply meant they got vaulted. We've been down that road, and it didn't produce the results you desire. People instead took active measures to avoid those factors entirely, leaving us in a situation basically where we are now anyway.
People felt strongly enough about it at the time that we lost a statistically significant portion of the player base over the issue. And that drama factory is part of the appeal of this roleplaying game for many people. I'm not watching Game of Thrones because I find the characters well adjusted, after all. And plenty of people walked accidentally. I did once, I can think of a dozen players offhand that suffered the same fate as well.
The result I desire is a player base more aware that they have something to lose that is forced to take action to avoid loss, or suffers consequences. Vaulting a desirable item to avoid losing it was part of that. Doesn't seem like a zero sum to me.
Now, pair this with the complaint about the overabundance of rare metals and plats... how do you get rid of plats and rare metals in the economy, without a sink of some sort such as equipment destruction? Weapons should destruct. That's how we cycle out rare materials, and plats. Item loss was simply a mechanic ahead of its time.
Your statements on these mechanics, and let's be blunt, are anecdotal to your own purview, and don't take into account the reality of other people's experience, nor several relevant issues in today's DragonRealms (rare metals, plat economy, etc).
People felt strongly enough about it at the time that we lost a statistically significant portion of the player base over the issue. And that drama factory is part of the appeal of this roleplaying game for many people. I'm not watching Game of Thrones because I find the characters well adjusted, after all. And plenty of people walked accidentally. I did once, I can think of a dozen players offhand that suffered the same fate as well.
The result I desire is a player base more aware that they have something to lose that is forced to take action to avoid loss, or suffers consequences. Vaulting a desirable item to avoid losing it was part of that. Doesn't seem like a zero sum to me.
Now, pair this with the complaint about the overabundance of rare metals and plats... how do you get rid of plats and rare metals in the economy, without a sink of some sort such as equipment destruction? Weapons should destruct. That's how we cycle out rare materials, and plats. Item loss was simply a mechanic ahead of its time.
Your statements on these mechanics, and let's be blunt, are anecdotal to your own purview, and don't take into account the reality of other people's experience, nor several relevant issues in today's DragonRealms (rare metals, plat economy, etc).
Then make it 200 ranks, or 500 ranks.
>>It would be far to simple to grind up a 100 rank character with the intent of throwing it away just to go on a murder spree with no regards for policy.<<
That would probably be a really bad idea.
But if someone wanted to they could in theory train for a bit then go on a noobling murder spree right now, and I can't recall anyone really doing that.
Mazrian
>>It would be far to simple to grind up a 100 rank character with the intent of throwing it away just to go on a murder spree with no regards for policy.<<
That would probably be a really bad idea.
But if someone wanted to they could in theory train for a bit then go on a noobling murder spree right now, and I can't recall anyone really doing that.
Mazrian
>>But if someone wanted to they could in theory train for a bit then go on a noobling murder spree right now, and I can't recall anyone really doing that.
1998, MSZone accounts. That's what we did. We churned throwaway characters in a level playing field and griefed people out of playing.
I don't advise a return to this.
1998, MSZone accounts. That's what we did. We churned throwaway characters in a level playing field and griefed people out of playing.
I don't advise a return to this.
