Previous Thread
Post
Previous
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
I'm excited about these changes! This will be a nice quality of life improvement for a lot of people. I have a few questions I would like to ask for clarity's sake.
>The ability to falsely accuse non-necromancers is now gone. Necromancers will only start to be accuseable after spending a long time in town.
I'm assuming that having an 'obvious' sign of necromancy on you still results in an automatic accuse success? I.E a transcendental necromancy spell or Icutu Zaharenela.
I imagine having a necromancer title up results in maximum social outrage for whatever province you're in?
Could we have an estimate of how long a necromancer must linger in town before they risk being accused? Does being hidden/invisible still pause the in town timer? Does Rite of Contrition still provide a reduction of severity to said in town timer?
>Everyone (not just necromancers) is now able to declare their attitude regarding necromancy.
I love this! Could we please have a way to tell what declaration we've made after the fact? Perhaps via a 'recall declaration' command. Something like: You recall that you have declared yourself friendly to the Philosophers of the Knife / You recall that you have declared yourself an enemy to all practitioners of necromancy.
And a few more questions...
Is there any hope for Redeemed to get someone to declare for as well? None of those 3 seems to represent them.
Is choosing to follow one of the 4 paths going to get a necromancer (or anyone else for that matter) locked out of certain guildhalls?
More wishful thinking than anything else...I was kind of hoping some affiliation titles might be available depending on your choice.
Is there any hope for Redeemed to get someone to declare for as well? None of those 3 seems to represent them.
Is choosing to follow one of the 4 paths going to get a necromancer (or anyone else for that matter) locked out of certain guildhalls?
More wishful thinking than anything else...I was kind of hoping some affiliation titles might be available depending on your choice.
IMO, making one of the pro-Necromancer declarations (or bonding to a Necromancer) should come with some consequences. Some possibilities (just brainstorming):
• Incompatible declarations might affect verbs in the same way demeanor does.
• Some guilds may not take kindly to their own members making such declarations. (The obvious candidates for this are Cleric and Paladin, but I could see other guilds or guildhalls potentially wanting to distance themselves from pro-Necromancer characters in an effort to avoid having heat brought on themselves.)
• Social corruption slowly accrues in justice zones (particularly in locales that are more hostile to necromancy).
• It becomes possible to be "falsely" accused of necromancy, with odds varying based on location and time spent there. (I know this was removed intentionally, but local authorities would arguably judge you by the company you keep, and these declarations seem to be at least quasi-public based on the JUSTICE verb.)
In the same vein, declaring yourself as an enemy of all Necromancers should come with some consequences. Lingering around that monastery too long? Maybe someone takes notice and sends something to deal with you. (Undead in areas that have ties to necromancy might also prioritize you as a target.)
It would also be cool if declarations came with optional generic titles:
• Enemy of Necromancers
• Friend of Necromancers
• Friend of Philosophers
• Friend of the Perverse
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
• Incompatible declarations might affect verbs in the same way demeanor does.
• Some guilds may not take kindly to their own members making such declarations. (The obvious candidates for this are Cleric and Paladin, but I could see other guilds or guildhalls potentially wanting to distance themselves from pro-Necromancer characters in an effort to avoid having heat brought on themselves.)
• Social corruption slowly accrues in justice zones (particularly in locales that are more hostile to necromancy).
• It becomes possible to be "falsely" accused of necromancy, with odds varying based on location and time spent there. (I know this was removed intentionally, but local authorities would arguably judge you by the company you keep, and these declarations seem to be at least quasi-public based on the JUSTICE verb.)
In the same vein, declaring yourself as an enemy of all Necromancers should come with some consequences. Lingering around that monastery too long? Maybe someone takes notice and sends something to deal with you. (Undead in areas that have ties to necromancy might also prioritize you as a target.)
It would also be cool if declarations came with optional generic titles:
• Enemy of Necromancers
• Friend of Necromancers
• Friend of Philosophers
• Friend of the Perverse
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
I agree with all of the above.
Another possible consequence for declaring yourself as an enemy of Necromancers could be particularly bad things happening to you should you dare set foot on the Basalt Isle. Anybody embarking there is setting up for a bad time to begin with, but for Team Holy it should be orders of magnitude worse.
Another possible consequence for declaring yourself as an enemy of Necromancers could be particularly bad things happening to you should you dare set foot on the Basalt Isle. Anybody embarking there is setting up for a bad time to begin with, but for Team Holy it should be orders of magnitude worse.
<<* You are able to see people who share your attitude toward necromancers with the JUSTICE verb, if they've declared it.>>
How does this work? The JUSTICE verb doesn't seem to have any syntax help available in it, and just JUSTICE by itself says nothing about it.
Thanks,
-Life Weaver Karthor
How does this work? The JUSTICE verb doesn't seem to have any syntax help available in it, and just JUSTICE by itself says nothing about it.
Thanks,
-Life Weaver Karthor
>>Lambl: How does this work? The JUSTICE verb doesn't seem to have any syntax help available in it, and just JUSTICE by itself says nothing about it.
If another person in the room shares your attitude toward necromancers, it adds a line to JUSTICE:
> justice
After assessing the area, you believe there is some kind of unusual law enforcement in this area.
You believe that Isharon shares your attitude that all necromancers are evil.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
If another person in the room shares your attitude toward necromancers, it adds a line to JUSTICE:
> justice
After assessing the area, you believe there is some kind of unusual law enforcement in this area.
You believe that Isharon shares your attitude that all necromancers are evil.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
This isn't a change in how the provinces have been portrayed over the years.
Theren is staunchly intolerant.
Ilithi is more lenient.
The rest of the provinces are somewhere in the middle with slight variations.
It's now codified into the system with province-level SO tracking, which does in fact mean Necromancers can operate freer if they're willing to travel, but the characterizations did not change.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Theren is staunchly intolerant.
Ilithi is more lenient.
The rest of the provinces are somewhere in the middle with slight variations.
It's now codified into the system with province-level SO tracking, which does in fact mean Necromancers can operate freer if they're willing to travel, but the characterizations did not change.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
>>I'm having a hard time seeing any reason why anyone should take necromancers seriously anymore, since the leaders of the provincial governments don't seem to care. Congrats I guess, they're just like every other guild now.
Like Armifer said, this isn't a change in game lore, this is making mechanics better reflect that game lore within each Province.
The governments very much do care, they just differ in opinions on how to approach their caring.
This is all stuff that has played out for years and years in each of the Provinces' events, and has been reinforced by numerous recent events, including the one last night in front of DiSilveron manor near the Crossing. There will likewise be more events to come that further integrate the mechanical changes into the established lore for each Province.
Therengia will continue to be the hardest line of any of the Provinces regarding any forbidden practices, including Sorcery and Necromancy. It's a very Paladin Province, and its culture is pervaded by very black and white thinking, and very black and white executions of what is felt to be right. It will take the longest for the citizenry of Therengia to forget the face of someone they held in suspicion or of whom they saw enacting a forbidden practice. They are just that way there.
Ilithi has a long history of being more tolerant of some types of forbidden and otherwise illegal practices (or at least ones that are way more forbidden or illegal elsewhere), especially if it's kept not particularly blatant and isn't being used to harm any of the citizenry. This is why Aemmin was the one in the most recent events trying to convince the other Provincial leaders of the wisdom of her approach. She thinks that the truly hardline tacks being taken by many others (exemplified by Therengia and the High Temple especially) may well be more dangerous than monitoring for true antagonistic or explosive uses of these practices (sorcery, shifting, necromancy, pretty much every freaky thing you can name outside of explicit demonic/extra planar entity pacts) and dealing with those swiftly and without mercy, while simultaneously treating the lesser practitioners of these acts as people to be watched and attempted to be persuaded to return to society's more accepted practices. She thinks that the ultra hardline approach is pushing people to more and more extreme associations and actions, due to them feeling that there is no way for them to exist with current society, or to ever be redeemed. She does not want to snuggle with Liches. She does not welcome Jomay. She's not BFFs with the Children of Kaelstrom. She just believes that there is the potential to help prevent people from becoming the next version of those, or trying to join up with them if things are handled differently. This willingness to try to redeem the lesser threats is reflected in them having the fastest speed at which the citizenry there are willing to move past a socially outrageous offense.
Zoluren has a storied history of fighting against Necromancy. That's not changing, either. Zoluren is also a Province with a history of having to deal with the fallout of purges that swept up many, many innocents. These dual truths are reflected in the citizenry being somewhat willing to accept that maybe what others say they saw isn't always the strictest truth, and them being willing to try to take calmer, more methodical approaches in rooting out subtle evils, while still reacting swiftly to explicit dangers in the moment.
The Qi Archipelago is a lot of different governments, with a lot of different outlooks on various illegal activities. This pans out to a more moderated approach to any governmental or culturally accepted thing, as there is just a lot of diverse input involved. This is reflected in a moderate speed to which the citizenry will forget the face of someone who committed a socially outrageous act.
Forfedhdar is likewise a Province of several governments working in concert relatively equally. Their proximity to Ilithi (and the closeness of their governments) has influenced their outlook somewhat, but the citizens there have lived near the Great Barrier for its entire existence (amongst other things), and they remain far less likely to seek the redemption of one who engages in socially outrages acts than their nearest friends and allies are.
-Persida
Like Armifer said, this isn't a change in game lore, this is making mechanics better reflect that game lore within each Province.
The governments very much do care, they just differ in opinions on how to approach their caring.
This is all stuff that has played out for years and years in each of the Provinces' events, and has been reinforced by numerous recent events, including the one last night in front of DiSilveron manor near the Crossing. There will likewise be more events to come that further integrate the mechanical changes into the established lore for each Province.
Therengia will continue to be the hardest line of any of the Provinces regarding any forbidden practices, including Sorcery and Necromancy. It's a very Paladin Province, and its culture is pervaded by very black and white thinking, and very black and white executions of what is felt to be right. It will take the longest for the citizenry of Therengia to forget the face of someone they held in suspicion or of whom they saw enacting a forbidden practice. They are just that way there.
Ilithi has a long history of being more tolerant of some types of forbidden and otherwise illegal practices (or at least ones that are way more forbidden or illegal elsewhere), especially if it's kept not particularly blatant and isn't being used to harm any of the citizenry. This is why Aemmin was the one in the most recent events trying to convince the other Provincial leaders of the wisdom of her approach. She thinks that the truly hardline tacks being taken by many others (exemplified by Therengia and the High Temple especially) may well be more dangerous than monitoring for true antagonistic or explosive uses of these practices (sorcery, shifting, necromancy, pretty much every freaky thing you can name outside of explicit demonic/extra planar entity pacts) and dealing with those swiftly and without mercy, while simultaneously treating the lesser practitioners of these acts as people to be watched and attempted to be persuaded to return to society's more accepted practices. She thinks that the ultra hardline approach is pushing people to more and more extreme associations and actions, due to them feeling that there is no way for them to exist with current society, or to ever be redeemed. She does not want to snuggle with Liches. She does not welcome Jomay. She's not BFFs with the Children of Kaelstrom. She just believes that there is the potential to help prevent people from becoming the next version of those, or trying to join up with them if things are handled differently. This willingness to try to redeem the lesser threats is reflected in them having the fastest speed at which the citizenry there are willing to move past a socially outrageous offense.
Zoluren has a storied history of fighting against Necromancy. That's not changing, either. Zoluren is also a Province with a history of having to deal with the fallout of purges that swept up many, many innocents. These dual truths are reflected in the citizenry being somewhat willing to accept that maybe what others say they saw isn't always the strictest truth, and them being willing to try to take calmer, more methodical approaches in rooting out subtle evils, while still reacting swiftly to explicit dangers in the moment.
The Qi Archipelago is a lot of different governments, with a lot of different outlooks on various illegal activities. This pans out to a more moderated approach to any governmental or culturally accepted thing, as there is just a lot of diverse input involved. This is reflected in a moderate speed to which the citizenry will forget the face of someone who committed a socially outrageous act.
Forfedhdar is likewise a Province of several governments working in concert relatively equally. Their proximity to Ilithi (and the closeness of their governments) has influenced their outlook somewhat, but the citizens there have lived near the Great Barrier for its entire existence (amongst other things), and they remain far less likely to seek the redemption of one who engages in socially outrages acts than their nearest friends and allies are.
-Persida
Very cool! Quick question -
>ARMIFER: province-level SO tracking
This may be PAFO, but does this mean that each province has different SO accumulation constants in place? I.e., can a Necromancer hang out in Shard longer than they could in Theren before accusation chance caps out? Or maybe they cap at different ranges now?
>>I'm excited about these changes!
Thank you! So are we. They are the first step to a number of other things being released, much better reflect the otherwise established differences in Provincial cultures and attitudes, and the removal of the SO/SC death spiral is a long needed QoL update for newer and returning players who tended to get caught up in it entirely without realizing what had happened at all (SO/SC generating objects, not realizing what can happen with sorcerous backlash, etc).
>>I'm assuming that having an 'obvious' sign of necromancy on you still results in an automatic accuse success? I.E a transcendental necromancy spell or Icutu Zaharenela.
>>I imagine having a necromancer title up results in maximum social outrage for whatever province you're in?
>>Could we have an estimate of how long a necromancer must linger in town before they risk being accused? Does being hidden/invisible still pause the in town timer? Does Rite of Contrition still provide a reduction of severity to said in town timer?
Nothing was changed about accusing actual Necromancers of necromancy. The only changes to ACCUSE were to remove the ability to successfully accuse non-Necros of necromancy.
>>Could we please have a way to tell what declaration we've made after the fact?
Right now, the way to do that is to use JUSTICE somewhere to see if there are any others who have the same ideology that you have. Your current setting will show up in that messaging.
>>Is there any hope for Redeemed to get someone to declare for as well? None of those 3 seems to represent them.
The 'hates all necromancers' option is intended to be the correct option to represent a Redeemed Necromancer's stance on the matter. They are indeed a self loathing lot.
>>Is choosing to follow one of the 4 paths going to get a necromancer (or anyone else for that matter) locked out of certain guildhalls?
This is a very real possibility, yes. As a Necromancer, you can bet your tail it will. As a non-Necromancer, well... it is a public declaration after all, that's why it can be seen by others via the JUSTICE command. If you're trying to play a character that is only cool with necrostuff on the down low, you probably should make sure your outwardly-known ideology/attitude reflects that, don't you think? If you don't want your character to be treated by your guild as someone who is well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy, you should make sure they aren't well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy. Most guilds really, really frown on that.
To expand on this, I give an extreme caveat emptor to anyone who decides to set their character's affiliation to being okay with any form of necromancy if they aren't a Necro character. You can absolutely expect it to impact your game play at least some of the time, and possibly in very, very significant ways. You will absolutely end up excluded from some things, possibly from really significant things. Just because you won't be automatically burned in the street constantly doesn't mean you aren't publicly declaring a potentially very seriously anti-social thing. Don't set yourself this way unless you actually play this way and intend to accept any and all consequences for playing this way.
It will open you up to PVP consent considerations, policy-wise, as well. No, it's not the same as being OPEN, but you can consider it the same as walking around with a big middle finger extended to any societally-aligned PC, so you can't be CLOSED or GUARDED and expect you'll never have someone screaming at you and trying to run you off at swordpoint because of it, because you almost certainly will, and that sort of thing will be treated as within policy -- barring other circumstances, of course. Each contested PVP situation is evaluated separately. I just don't want anyone caught off guard about this aspect of things.
>>IMO, making one of the pro-Necromancer declarations (or bonding to a Necromancer) should come with some consequences.
Oh it does, and will. There are some other mechanics being tossed around in development-land currently that will further utilize this ideology/attitude flag, but you can rest assured it has consequences already, even if many are manually imposed by GMs currently.
>>Consequence for declaring yourself as an enemy of Necromancers
The sword does in fact cut both ways here, too. Please read what I wrote above about PVP and apply the same thing to your character in this case, too. If you are openly declaring yourself to hate all (or even certain types of) Necromancers, at least some Necromancers and their sympathizers might have pretty serious issues with this and may try to eat your face off or turn you into a piece of sculpture. These things are to be expected, and policy-wise will be considered as factors in any PVP consent dispute. Again, it's NOT the same as the PC with that ideology/attitude setting being PVP OPEN. It's a matter of it factoring in for consent purposes in a GUARDED or CLOSED PVP situation.
-Persida
Thank you! So are we. They are the first step to a number of other things being released, much better reflect the otherwise established differences in Provincial cultures and attitudes, and the removal of the SO/SC death spiral is a long needed QoL update for newer and returning players who tended to get caught up in it entirely without realizing what had happened at all (SO/SC generating objects, not realizing what can happen with sorcerous backlash, etc).
>>I'm assuming that having an 'obvious' sign of necromancy on you still results in an automatic accuse success? I.E a transcendental necromancy spell or Icutu Zaharenela.
>>I imagine having a necromancer title up results in maximum social outrage for whatever province you're in?
>>Could we have an estimate of how long a necromancer must linger in town before they risk being accused? Does being hidden/invisible still pause the in town timer? Does Rite of Contrition still provide a reduction of severity to said in town timer?
Nothing was changed about accusing actual Necromancers of necromancy. The only changes to ACCUSE were to remove the ability to successfully accuse non-Necros of necromancy.
>>Could we please have a way to tell what declaration we've made after the fact?
Right now, the way to do that is to use JUSTICE somewhere to see if there are any others who have the same ideology that you have. Your current setting will show up in that messaging.
>>Is there any hope for Redeemed to get someone to declare for as well? None of those 3 seems to represent them.
The 'hates all necromancers' option is intended to be the correct option to represent a Redeemed Necromancer's stance on the matter. They are indeed a self loathing lot.
>>Is choosing to follow one of the 4 paths going to get a necromancer (or anyone else for that matter) locked out of certain guildhalls?
This is a very real possibility, yes. As a Necromancer, you can bet your tail it will. As a non-Necromancer, well... it is a public declaration after all, that's why it can be seen by others via the JUSTICE command. If you're trying to play a character that is only cool with necrostuff on the down low, you probably should make sure your outwardly-known ideology/attitude reflects that, don't you think? If you don't want your character to be treated by your guild as someone who is well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy, you should make sure they aren't well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy. Most guilds really, really frown on that.
To expand on this, I give an extreme caveat emptor to anyone who decides to set their character's affiliation to being okay with any form of necromancy if they aren't a Necro character. You can absolutely expect it to impact your game play at least some of the time, and possibly in very, very significant ways. You will absolutely end up excluded from some things, possibly from really significant things. Just because you won't be automatically burned in the street constantly doesn't mean you aren't publicly declaring a potentially very seriously anti-social thing. Don't set yourself this way unless you actually play this way and intend to accept any and all consequences for playing this way.
It will open you up to PVP consent considerations, policy-wise, as well. No, it's not the same as being OPEN, but you can consider it the same as walking around with a big middle finger extended to any societally-aligned PC, so you can't be CLOSED or GUARDED and expect you'll never have someone screaming at you and trying to run you off at swordpoint because of it, because you almost certainly will, and that sort of thing will be treated as within policy -- barring other circumstances, of course. Each contested PVP situation is evaluated separately. I just don't want anyone caught off guard about this aspect of things.
>>IMO, making one of the pro-Necromancer declarations (or bonding to a Necromancer) should come with some consequences.
Oh it does, and will. There are some other mechanics being tossed around in development-land currently that will further utilize this ideology/attitude flag, but you can rest assured it has consequences already, even if many are manually imposed by GMs currently.
>>Consequence for declaring yourself as an enemy of Necromancers
The sword does in fact cut both ways here, too. Please read what I wrote above about PVP and apply the same thing to your character in this case, too. If you are openly declaring yourself to hate all (or even certain types of) Necromancers, at least some Necromancers and their sympathizers might have pretty serious issues with this and may try to eat your face off or turn you into a piece of sculpture. These things are to be expected, and policy-wise will be considered as factors in any PVP consent dispute. Again, it's NOT the same as the PC with that ideology/attitude setting being PVP OPEN. It's a matter of it factoring in for consent purposes in a GUARDED or CLOSED PVP situation.
-Persida
>>This may be PAFO, but does this mean that each province has different SO accumulation constants in place? I.e., can a Necromancer hang out in Shard longer than they could in Theren before accusation chance caps out? Or maybe they cap at different ranges now?
They have different calculations for how fast the population there stops caring about whatever SO-generating thing you did. So basically, SO drain rates differ in each Province, and each Province tracks how ticked at you it is separately from the others.
-Persida
They have different calculations for how fast the population there stops caring about whatever SO-generating thing you did. So basically, SO drain rates differ in each Province, and each Province tracks how ticked at you it is separately from the others.
-Persida
>>She thinks that the ultra hardline approach is pushing people to more and more extreme associations and actions, due to them feeling that there is no way for them to exist with current society, or to ever be redeemed. . . She just believes that there is the potential to help prevent people from becoming the next version of those, or trying to join up with them if things are handled differently.
I think these debates, and the mechanisms put in place to reflect them in game, are amazing! It makes the different paths of necromancy much more important, and allows for nuanced RP for characters with very different experiences with necromancers (or as a necromancer).
I also feel like it provides a context for players to feel like their actions matter in the great political theaters of Kermoria, where they can either remind the sheep why necromancers are to be feared, or prove that high sorcery can be a means of protecting the innocent.
I think these debates, and the mechanisms put in place to reflect them in game, are amazing! It makes the different paths of necromancy much more important, and allows for nuanced RP for characters with very different experiences with necromancers (or as a necromancer).
I also feel like it provides a context for players to feel like their actions matter in the great political theaters of Kermoria, where they can either remind the sheep why necromancers are to be feared, or prove that high sorcery can be a means of protecting the innocent.
Thanks for doing all this! Excited to see where it's all leading.
I had a few quick questions about the IC nature of the declarations and what exactly is "public," specifically for guilded Necros.
When a Necromancer declares support for a faction or for all necromancers in general, is this considered a "public" declaration in that we are announcing it to all of Elanthia and essentially outing ourselves, or is this "public" in that the guild would certainly be aware of it, but a Cleric that hates us still wouldn't know who we are.
Similarly, is the realm at large actually aware that there's *information redacted by GM Persida because it violates the forums Necromancer secrets policy* taking down a list of names for support, or is this a hush-hush thing that only guilded and staunch supporters would really be aware of? Overall some of us Necromancers are just wondering how far this declaration actually extends IC from a social perspective, and want to make sure that a declaration from a game perspective isn't an overt open declaration that would formally out us.
If, in fact, declaring Philo/Perverse/Support is a full-blown outing, are there guild consequences for the liars who publicly claim to hate Necros to maintain cover but secretly (and obviously) support them, or would it be tolerated and expected that some of us would still want to stay under the radar?
Thanks!
I had a few quick questions about the IC nature of the declarations and what exactly is "public," specifically for guilded Necros.
When a Necromancer declares support for a faction or for all necromancers in general, is this considered a "public" declaration in that we are announcing it to all of Elanthia and essentially outing ourselves, or is this "public" in that the guild would certainly be aware of it, but a Cleric that hates us still wouldn't know who we are.
Similarly, is the realm at large actually aware that there's *information redacted by GM Persida because it violates the forums Necromancer secrets policy* taking down a list of names for support, or is this a hush-hush thing that only guilded and staunch supporters would really be aware of? Overall some of us Necromancers are just wondering how far this declaration actually extends IC from a social perspective, and want to make sure that a declaration from a game perspective isn't an overt open declaration that would formally out us.
If, in fact, declaring Philo/Perverse/Support is a full-blown outing, are there guild consequences for the liars who publicly claim to hate Necros to maintain cover but secretly (and obviously) support them, or would it be tolerated and expected that some of us would still want to stay under the radar?
Thanks!
>> >>Is choosing to follow one of the 4 paths going to get a necromancer (or anyone else for that matter) locked out of certain guildhalls?
This is a very real possibility, yes. As a Necromancer, you can bet your tail it will. As a non-Necromancer, well... it is a public declaration after all, that's why it can be seen by others via the JUSTICE command. If you're trying to play a character that is only cool with necrostuff on the down low, you probably should make sure your outwardly-known ideology/attitude reflects that, don't you think? If you don't want your character to be treated by your guild as someone who is well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy, you should make sure they aren't well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy. Most guilds really, really frown on that.
To expand on this, I give an extreme caveat emptor to anyone who decides to set their character's affiliation to being okay with any form of necromancy if they aren't a Necro character. You can absolutely expect it to impact your game play at least some of the time, and possibly in very, very significant ways. You will absolutely end up excluded from some things, possibly from really significant things. Just because you won't be automatically burned in the street constantly doesn't mean you aren't publicly declaring a potentially very seriously anti-social thing. Don't set yourself this way unless you actually play this way and intend to accept any and all consequences for playing this way.
It will open you up to PVP consent considerations, policy-wise, as well. No, it's not the same as being OPEN, but you can consider it the same as walking around with a big middle finger extended to any societally-aligned PC, so you can't be CLOSED or GUARDED and expect you'll never have someone screaming at you and trying to run you off at swordpoint because of it, because you almost certainly will, and that sort of thing will be treated as within policy -- barring other circumstances, of course. Each contested PVP situation is evaluated separately. I just don't want anyone caught off guard about this aspect of things.<<
First let me say thanks. I am really excited by these changes and seeing more of this being implemented in the future etc.
I do have a question though about this. Not worried too much about guildhalls but a bit confused on the pvp aspect of this post. If justice shows those with a similar view of necromancers/necromancy, how will other players know if you have declared yourself opposite of them? Will necromancers be able to tell or can everyone tell what you are declared with justice? Or is that for future stuff like titles that are not yet done?
Thanks again.
This is a very real possibility, yes. As a Necromancer, you can bet your tail it will. As a non-Necromancer, well... it is a public declaration after all, that's why it can be seen by others via the JUSTICE command. If you're trying to play a character that is only cool with necrostuff on the down low, you probably should make sure your outwardly-known ideology/attitude reflects that, don't you think? If you don't want your character to be treated by your guild as someone who is well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy, you should make sure they aren't well known for being okay with any sort of necromancy. Most guilds really, really frown on that.
To expand on this, I give an extreme caveat emptor to anyone who decides to set their character's affiliation to being okay with any form of necromancy if they aren't a Necro character. You can absolutely expect it to impact your game play at least some of the time, and possibly in very, very significant ways. You will absolutely end up excluded from some things, possibly from really significant things. Just because you won't be automatically burned in the street constantly doesn't mean you aren't publicly declaring a potentially very seriously anti-social thing. Don't set yourself this way unless you actually play this way and intend to accept any and all consequences for playing this way.
It will open you up to PVP consent considerations, policy-wise, as well. No, it's not the same as being OPEN, but you can consider it the same as walking around with a big middle finger extended to any societally-aligned PC, so you can't be CLOSED or GUARDED and expect you'll never have someone screaming at you and trying to run you off at swordpoint because of it, because you almost certainly will, and that sort of thing will be treated as within policy -- barring other circumstances, of course. Each contested PVP situation is evaluated separately. I just don't want anyone caught off guard about this aspect of things.<<
First let me say thanks. I am really excited by these changes and seeing more of this being implemented in the future etc.
I do have a question though about this. Not worried too much about guildhalls but a bit confused on the pvp aspect of this post. If justice shows those with a similar view of necromancers/necromancy, how will other players know if you have declared yourself opposite of them? Will necromancers be able to tell or can everyone tell what you are declared with justice? Or is that for future stuff like titles that are not yet done?
Thanks again.
>>When a Necromancer declares support for a faction or for all necromancers in general, is this considered a "public" declaration in that we are announcing it to all of Elanthia and essentially outing ourselves, or is this "public" in that the guild would certainly be aware of it, but a Cleric that hates us still wouldn't know who we are.
Anyone who is in the room with you can see who has the same ideology/attitude setting by typing JUSTICE, regardless of if they are a Necromancer or not. Ostensibly, this could mean that your ideology/attitude declaration would only be widely known by those with the same setting as you. In practice, it means you're telling a whole lot of strangers this information, and they can then use it in any way they might want ICly. They might tell others selectively, they might shout at the rooftops that you are brothers in arms in ideology. They might be pretending to share your ideology in order to infiltrate the ranks and ferret out those who feel that way.
>>Similarly, is the realm at large actually aware that there's *information redacted by GM Persida because it violates the forums Necromancer secrets policy* taking down a list of names for support, or is this a hush-hush thing that only guilded and staunch supporters would really be aware of?
No Necromancer NPCs are ICly known to be Necromancer NPCs unless your character has inside information about Necromancers, or that NPC has themselves come out and done openly Necromantic things in public.
>>Overall some of us Necromancers are just wondering how far this declaration actually extends IC from a social perspective, and want to make sure that a declaration from a game perspective isn't an overt open declaration that would formally out us.
Basically, nobody is required to set this flag at all right now, so if you choose to do so, please understand that it is more or less public knowledge and will almost certainly become known ICly in game far beyond just those PCs who can see your character's setting directly via JUSTICE. This isn't just a behind-the-scenes mechanical setting that everyone else is supposed to pretend they don't know about ICly. This is intended to be a setting that reflects what your character puts forth about themselves publicly, or at least publicly enough that others who share that ideology can easily recognize them at a glance. What those same-aligned characters choose to do with that information is entirely up to them.
>>If, in fact, declaring Philo/Perverse/Support (for Necromancers) is a full-blown outing, are there guild consequences for the liars who publicly claim to hate Necros to maintain cover but secretly (and obviously) support them, or would it be tolerated and expected that some of us would still want to stay under the radar?
For Necromancers, the consequences associated with declaring publicly that you hate all Necromancers are far less than declaring publicly that you are down with the Perverse, in that more of the Necro GLs don't really care if you hate all other Necromancers than care if you might be really into consorting with demons. Again, though, you aren't required to set this flag at all (currently. There are plans for access to certain things to depend on your setting in the future), but if you think about what you know of the ideologies of each person who runs each guild location, you'll have a pretty darn good idea of who might have a problem with what sort of setting.
>>a bit confused on the pvp aspect of this post. If justice shows those with a similar view of necromancers/necromancy, how will other players know if you have declared yourself opposite of them? Will necromancers be able to tell or can everyone tell what you are declared with justice? Or is that for future stuff like titles that are not yet done?
People talk. There's no other detection set up. I was just wanting to give fair warning to anyone who felt entirely protected because the JUSTICE output only shows to others with your same setting. Word will almost certainly get around, and that's considered an IC thing. Please don't set your PC's ideology/attitude towards necromancy to anything you aren't comfortable with the entire rest of the game knowing and acting on.
-Persida
Anyone who is in the room with you can see who has the same ideology/attitude setting by typing JUSTICE, regardless of if they are a Necromancer or not. Ostensibly, this could mean that your ideology/attitude declaration would only be widely known by those with the same setting as you. In practice, it means you're telling a whole lot of strangers this information, and they can then use it in any way they might want ICly. They might tell others selectively, they might shout at the rooftops that you are brothers in arms in ideology. They might be pretending to share your ideology in order to infiltrate the ranks and ferret out those who feel that way.
>>Similarly, is the realm at large actually aware that there's *information redacted by GM Persida because it violates the forums Necromancer secrets policy* taking down a list of names for support, or is this a hush-hush thing that only guilded and staunch supporters would really be aware of?
No Necromancer NPCs are ICly known to be Necromancer NPCs unless your character has inside information about Necromancers, or that NPC has themselves come out and done openly Necromantic things in public.
>>Overall some of us Necromancers are just wondering how far this declaration actually extends IC from a social perspective, and want to make sure that a declaration from a game perspective isn't an overt open declaration that would formally out us.
Basically, nobody is required to set this flag at all right now, so if you choose to do so, please understand that it is more or less public knowledge and will almost certainly become known ICly in game far beyond just those PCs who can see your character's setting directly via JUSTICE. This isn't just a behind-the-scenes mechanical setting that everyone else is supposed to pretend they don't know about ICly. This is intended to be a setting that reflects what your character puts forth about themselves publicly, or at least publicly enough that others who share that ideology can easily recognize them at a glance. What those same-aligned characters choose to do with that information is entirely up to them.
>>If, in fact, declaring Philo/Perverse/Support (for Necromancers) is a full-blown outing, are there guild consequences for the liars who publicly claim to hate Necros to maintain cover but secretly (and obviously) support them, or would it be tolerated and expected that some of us would still want to stay under the radar?
For Necromancers, the consequences associated with declaring publicly that you hate all Necromancers are far less than declaring publicly that you are down with the Perverse, in that more of the Necro GLs don't really care if you hate all other Necromancers than care if you might be really into consorting with demons. Again, though, you aren't required to set this flag at all (currently. There are plans for access to certain things to depend on your setting in the future), but if you think about what you know of the ideologies of each person who runs each guild location, you'll have a pretty darn good idea of who might have a problem with what sort of setting.
>>a bit confused on the pvp aspect of this post. If justice shows those with a similar view of necromancers/necromancy, how will other players know if you have declared yourself opposite of them? Will necromancers be able to tell or can everyone tell what you are declared with justice? Or is that for future stuff like titles that are not yet done?
People talk. There's no other detection set up. I was just wanting to give fair warning to anyone who felt entirely protected because the JUSTICE output only shows to others with your same setting. Word will almost certainly get around, and that's considered an IC thing. Please don't set your PC's ideology/attitude towards necromancy to anything you aren't comfortable with the entire rest of the game knowing and acting on.
-Persida
Couple of questions:
1. Previously, if you were a member of one guild, and tried to cast a spell from another guild and failed, it would be considered sorcery and there would be social outrage. And you had to stay out of town until it wore off (usually 2 hours). With these changes, if you are accused of sorcery and continue to stay in the town, will the amount of time you would have to stay in a non justice area for SO stay the same as it is now (it went up every time you got accused or caught in the town)? Or will there be a basic amount of time allotted, and every time you stay in town and get caught just lead towards getting arrested and having the hounds go after you?
2. If you decide to publically declare your stance on necromancy, does mean you have to FOLLOW that stance? For example, you publically say you are against necros, but secretly you help them out. Would that pose a problem RP wise? Or if that's the case, that you say you hate necros but secretly help them, that it would be better to not publically announce your stance?
3. If you are an empath and fully supported necromancers, would that lead to issues within the guild, since even shifting is considered sorcery and cannot be done in the guild? Could an empath even get banned from their own guild?
Otherwise, I think these changes offer really good roleplay options and look forward to the results of what everyone's choices will bring.
Thanks.
1. Previously, if you were a member of one guild, and tried to cast a spell from another guild and failed, it would be considered sorcery and there would be social outrage. And you had to stay out of town until it wore off (usually 2 hours). With these changes, if you are accused of sorcery and continue to stay in the town, will the amount of time you would have to stay in a non justice area for SO stay the same as it is now (it went up every time you got accused or caught in the town)? Or will there be a basic amount of time allotted, and every time you stay in town and get caught just lead towards getting arrested and having the hounds go after you?
2. If you decide to publically declare your stance on necromancy, does mean you have to FOLLOW that stance? For example, you publically say you are against necros, but secretly you help them out. Would that pose a problem RP wise? Or if that's the case, that you say you hate necros but secretly help them, that it would be better to not publically announce your stance?
3. If you are an empath and fully supported necromancers, would that lead to issues within the guild, since even shifting is considered sorcery and cannot be done in the guild? Could an empath even get banned from their own guild?
Otherwise, I think these changes offer really good roleplay options and look forward to the results of what everyone's choices will bring.
Thanks.
>Anyone who is in the room with you can see who has the same ideology/attitude setting by typing JUSTICE, regardless of if they are a Necromancer or not. Ostensibly, this could mean that your ideology/attitude declaration would only be widely known by those with the same setting as you. In practice, it means you're telling a whole lot of strangers this information, and they can then use it in any way they might want ICly. They might tell others selectively, they might shout at the rooftops that you are brothers in arms in ideology. They might be pretending to share your ideology in order to infiltrate the ranks and ferret out those who feel that way.
Any thoughts on making it public to anyone who has also declared, not just those who have declared the same way you have? I'm having a hard time seeing how, for example, Team Holy is going to see that someone has declared support for Perverse if JUSTICE only reveals other individuals who have declared being enemies with Necromancers.
>>1. Previously, if you were a member of one guild, and tried to cast a spell from another guild and failed, it would be considered sorcery and there would be social outrage. And you had to stay out of town until it wore off (usually 2 hours). With these changes, if you are accused of sorcery and continue to stay in the town, will the amount of time you would have to stay in a non justice area for SO stay the same as it is now (it went up every time you got accused or caught in the town)? Or will there be a basic amount of time allotted, and every time you stay in town and get caught just lead towards getting arrested and having the hounds go after you?
There is still Social Outrage for sorcerous backlash in justice zones. Repeated Social Outrage-gaining actions will result in a higher Social Outrage rating, and the higher your rating, the longer it will take to drain as well as the worse your consequences will be if you try to interact with the citizenry. The Hounds no longer go after anyone for their SO rating, though. The calculations for how long your SO lasts, and what all various levels of SO result in have changed across the board. SO rating is now per-Province, and drain rates are now different for different Provinces based on the culture of that Province and how quickly the residents there get over their wariness of someone who committed socially outrageous acts.
>>2. If you decide to publically declare your stance on necromancy, does mean you have to FOLLOW that stance? For example, you publically say you are against necros, but secretly you help them out. Would that pose a problem RP wise? Or if that's the case, that you say you hate necros but secretly help them, that it would be better to not publically announce your stance?
Nope, your character is not required to RP out the ideology/attitude towards necromancy that they have publicly declared. We expect that some who intend for their characters to secretly help Necromancers will set their ideology/attitude to 'hates all Necros', while others will just remain neutral/undeclared (no ideology setting). The system is entirely optional for non-Necros, and mostly optional for Necros (though there are some other things planned for Necromancers that require one setting or another).
That said, if a character is set to 'hates all Necros' and is OPENLY AND PUBLICLY acting in support of Necromancers, their actions are going to override their setting as far as any IC response goes.
>>3. If you are an empath and fully supported necromancers, would that lead to issues within the guild, since even shifting is considered sorcery and cannot be done in the guild? Could an empath even get banned from their own guild?
A member of any non-Necro guild declaring support for Necromancers may well end up with issues with their guild. All of the sanctioned guilds of Kermoria are officially against necromancy. The only other guild that has a history of completely not caring about its members open support of Necromancy is the only other illegal guild -- Thieves. The sanctioned (read: non-illegal) guilds all have varying stances on their members using sorcery, but this is vastly different than them hand waving open support for necromancy. Any member of any of the sanctioned guilds should expect possible guild repercussions for publicly declaring support of necromancy, up to and including being banned from their own guild or refusal of their guildleaders to teach them anything new.
-Persida
There is still Social Outrage for sorcerous backlash in justice zones. Repeated Social Outrage-gaining actions will result in a higher Social Outrage rating, and the higher your rating, the longer it will take to drain as well as the worse your consequences will be if you try to interact with the citizenry. The Hounds no longer go after anyone for their SO rating, though. The calculations for how long your SO lasts, and what all various levels of SO result in have changed across the board. SO rating is now per-Province, and drain rates are now different for different Provinces based on the culture of that Province and how quickly the residents there get over their wariness of someone who committed socially outrageous acts.
>>2. If you decide to publically declare your stance on necromancy, does mean you have to FOLLOW that stance? For example, you publically say you are against necros, but secretly you help them out. Would that pose a problem RP wise? Or if that's the case, that you say you hate necros but secretly help them, that it would be better to not publically announce your stance?
Nope, your character is not required to RP out the ideology/attitude towards necromancy that they have publicly declared. We expect that some who intend for their characters to secretly help Necromancers will set their ideology/attitude to 'hates all Necros', while others will just remain neutral/undeclared (no ideology setting). The system is entirely optional for non-Necros, and mostly optional for Necros (though there are some other things planned for Necromancers that require one setting or another).
That said, if a character is set to 'hates all Necros' and is OPENLY AND PUBLICLY acting in support of Necromancers, their actions are going to override their setting as far as any IC response goes.
>>3. If you are an empath and fully supported necromancers, would that lead to issues within the guild, since even shifting is considered sorcery and cannot be done in the guild? Could an empath even get banned from their own guild?
A member of any non-Necro guild declaring support for Necromancers may well end up with issues with their guild. All of the sanctioned guilds of Kermoria are officially against necromancy. The only other guild that has a history of completely not caring about its members open support of Necromancy is the only other illegal guild -- Thieves. The sanctioned (read: non-illegal) guilds all have varying stances on their members using sorcery, but this is vastly different than them hand waving open support for necromancy. Any member of any of the sanctioned guilds should expect possible guild repercussions for publicly declaring support of necromancy, up to and including being banned from their own guild or refusal of their guildleaders to teach them anything new.
-Persida
>>Any thoughts on making it public to anyone who has also declared, not just those who have declared the same way you have? I'm having a hard time seeing how, for example, Team Holy is going to see that someone has declared support for Perverse if JUSTICE only reveals other individuals who have declared being enemies with Necromancers.
That's not an intended thing at this time. The setting is meant to reflect your openness about your ideology with others of like minds.
-Persida
That's not an intended thing at this time. The setting is meant to reflect your openness about your ideology with others of like minds.
-Persida
>>Any thoughts on making it public to anyone who has also declared, not just those who have declared the same way you have?
>>That's not an intended thing at this time.
I want to second the suggestion that anyone who has opted into this system be able to tell who has declared what, regardless of their own choice. I feel like if your character feels strongly enough about necromancy that they voluntarily and publicly declare their attitude about it, they are also going to be paying a lot of attention to what other people are saying, and not just their allies.
I would like it to be possible for character A, who has declared their support for necromancy, and character B, who has declared all necromancers their enemy, to be able to tell each other apart at a glance while they're waiting for a ferry together. By limiting it to allies only you are restricting this kind of organic RP opportunity.
>>That's not an intended thing at this time.
I want to second the suggestion that anyone who has opted into this system be able to tell who has declared what, regardless of their own choice. I feel like if your character feels strongly enough about necromancy that they voluntarily and publicly declare their attitude about it, they are also going to be paying a lot of attention to what other people are saying, and not just their allies.
I would like it to be possible for character A, who has declared their support for necromancy, and character B, who has declared all necromancers their enemy, to be able to tell each other apart at a glance while they're waiting for a ferry together. By limiting it to allies only you are restricting this kind of organic RP opportunity.
I want to say a big thank you to the GMs for fixing the SO spiral issue, friend of mine came back from a absence, forgot its illegal to shift in town. When they got hit with the "crowd booing" they left town but he needed to deposit a good amount of coin.
Every time he went to deposit they arrested him, he pleaded innocent on the first time judged, got off as innocent. But this ended up spiralling like 5 times before he ended up assisting cause he kept getting arrested even though he was no longer on the board. 2 or 3 times innocent, 2 guilty & fined.
The GM was so nice, explained about the whole social outrage & justice mess he was in, so advised him to get out of justice zones. Bad issue was the sack within sack within sack from the jail was starting to adversely affect his character, basically as I understood it was corrupting his game info.
So, I learned a lesson, he learned a very valuable lesson but now a giant Thank You for hoping that never happens to another. :)
Every time he went to deposit they arrested him, he pleaded innocent on the first time judged, got off as innocent. But this ended up spiralling like 5 times before he ended up assisting cause he kept getting arrested even though he was no longer on the board. 2 or 3 times innocent, 2 guilty & fined.
The GM was so nice, explained about the whole social outrage & justice mess he was in, so advised him to get out of justice zones. Bad issue was the sack within sack within sack from the jail was starting to adversely affect his character, basically as I understood it was corrupting his game info.
So, I learned a lesson, he learned a very valuable lesson but now a giant Thank You for hoping that never happens to another. :)
My character got caught in an SO spiral and it was maddening. I was super confused and had no idea what was going on. So I'm glad that's done.
> [Aemmin] thinks that the truly hardline tacks being taken by many others (exemplified by Therengia and the High Temple especially) may well be more dangerous than monitoring for true antagonistic or explosive uses of these practices
I love this. My cleric's personal take was that executing necromancers on sight is a missed opportunity to redeem them. I like that this philosophy has mechanical representation in game, and it may lead to some fun debates.
> Out of curiosity, why would anyone "publicly declare" their support of necromancy when they can casually declare it with no repercussions?
I think this is pretty important. The dark side needs to be ... tempting. Otherwise it'll be optimal not to engage with the system at all unless you're a hard-line anti-necro.
> [Aemmin] thinks that the truly hardline tacks being taken by many others (exemplified by Therengia and the High Temple especially) may well be more dangerous than monitoring for true antagonistic or explosive uses of these practices
I love this. My cleric's personal take was that executing necromancers on sight is a missed opportunity to redeem them. I like that this philosophy has mechanical representation in game, and it may lead to some fun debates.
> Out of curiosity, why would anyone "publicly declare" their support of necromancy when they can casually declare it with no repercussions?
I think this is pretty important. The dark side needs to be ... tempting. Otherwise it'll be optimal not to engage with the system at all unless you're a hard-line anti-necro.
Are there plans for non-necros to have support structures for the sympathizers? Will there be a certain guild leader that still secretly allows your promotion, or is willing to teach things that regionally aligned NPC's refuse to? I see the RP opportunities for what they're worth and would love to participate in them in time, but not if it requires me hitting circle 100/150 so that I'm not completely halting my character progression.
-Nsar
-Nsar
>>Out of curiosity, why would anyone "publicly declare" their support of necromancy when they can casually declare it with no repercussions?
>>I think this is pretty important. The dark side needs to be ... tempting. Otherwise it'll be optimal not to engage with the system at all unless you're a hard-line anti-necro.
The ability for non-Necros to declare their support for necromancy in any sort of public way isn't intended to be 'optimal' by any stretch of the term. It's a roleplaying choice, and is expected to be the kind of RP choice that doesn't necessarily appeal to tons of people because of the IC societal downsides of being known as someone openly supporting what is, at best, a very controversial thing. Some folks have already been playing their characters this way for years. This gives them a mechanical way to support that, too.
Casually declaring support for necromancy in a way that gets out to the public already does lead to repercussions. Ask any of the characters who have been Hounded, or sent to the Red Buzzard dungeon, or deported to Poke beach, or hit with huge fines for forbidden practices or crimes against the state, or slapped with huge Social Corruption or necromantic taint, or banned from whole Provinces, or banned from their own guild halls, etc. It has happened many times over the years to many folks. It will continue to happen now to varying degrees. There's just also a mechanic in place now for different systems to hook into to reflect this ideology as a persistent thing, instead of most of it only happening by manual GM intervention. The manual GM intervention isn't going away, though.
If someone keeps their support of necromancy quiet, then the world isn't going to react. If someone puts it in out there a way that the world can more easily find out, then there will be reactions. The depth and scope of those reactions will continue to depend on where the character is and who the people reacting are. If you have a non-Necro character who sets themselves as okay with Philosophers, you're going to see a very different experience than a non-Necro character who sets themselves to okay with just the Perverse. If your character is a Cleric or Paladin or Warrior Mage who sets themselves okay with any type of necromancy at all, they're going to have a different experience than a character who is a Moon Mage and does the same. If your character stays exclusively around Ilithi and gets known as being okay with necromancy, they're going to have a different experience than a character with the same reputation going to Therengia. And etc.
>>Are there plans for non-necros to have support structures for the sympathizers?
There are plans for some things that will only be accessed by those who are pro-necromancy, but these aren't intended to necessarily be full-on support structures.
>>Will there be a certain guild leader that still secretly allows your promotion, or is willing to teach things that regionally aligned NPC's refuse to?
Please remember that the different Provinces feel differently about certain things, too, but no, not in some cases. If you want to RP a Cleric that is publicly known as supporting the demon-worshipers of the Perverse, that character almost certainly isn't going to find advancement within the Cleric's Guild any longer.
>>I see the RP opportunities for what they're worth and would love to participate in them in time, but not if it requires me hitting circle 100/150 so that I'm not completely halting my character progression.
It's understandable that RPing a publicly-known supporter of something that is still very condemned by the vast majority of society would have significant societal (and associated mechanical) repercussions, and that those repercussions might be enough to make some folks not interested in that type of RP. These changes overall actually represent a better diversification of those repercussions, not an increase in them, but since a lot of players never RPed in this way before, they might not realize that at first glance. It's still absolutely fine for someone to consider the potential risks too much to want to RP this out, though! It's supposed to feel really meaningful as a RP choice.
-Persida
>>I think this is pretty important. The dark side needs to be ... tempting. Otherwise it'll be optimal not to engage with the system at all unless you're a hard-line anti-necro.
The ability for non-Necros to declare their support for necromancy in any sort of public way isn't intended to be 'optimal' by any stretch of the term. It's a roleplaying choice, and is expected to be the kind of RP choice that doesn't necessarily appeal to tons of people because of the IC societal downsides of being known as someone openly supporting what is, at best, a very controversial thing. Some folks have already been playing their characters this way for years. This gives them a mechanical way to support that, too.
Casually declaring support for necromancy in a way that gets out to the public already does lead to repercussions. Ask any of the characters who have been Hounded, or sent to the Red Buzzard dungeon, or deported to Poke beach, or hit with huge fines for forbidden practices or crimes against the state, or slapped with huge Social Corruption or necromantic taint, or banned from whole Provinces, or banned from their own guild halls, etc. It has happened many times over the years to many folks. It will continue to happen now to varying degrees. There's just also a mechanic in place now for different systems to hook into to reflect this ideology as a persistent thing, instead of most of it only happening by manual GM intervention. The manual GM intervention isn't going away, though.
If someone keeps their support of necromancy quiet, then the world isn't going to react. If someone puts it in out there a way that the world can more easily find out, then there will be reactions. The depth and scope of those reactions will continue to depend on where the character is and who the people reacting are. If you have a non-Necro character who sets themselves as okay with Philosophers, you're going to see a very different experience than a non-Necro character who sets themselves to okay with just the Perverse. If your character is a Cleric or Paladin or Warrior Mage who sets themselves okay with any type of necromancy at all, they're going to have a different experience than a character who is a Moon Mage and does the same. If your character stays exclusively around Ilithi and gets known as being okay with necromancy, they're going to have a different experience than a character with the same reputation going to Therengia. And etc.
>>Are there plans for non-necros to have support structures for the sympathizers?
There are plans for some things that will only be accessed by those who are pro-necromancy, but these aren't intended to necessarily be full-on support structures.
>>Will there be a certain guild leader that still secretly allows your promotion, or is willing to teach things that regionally aligned NPC's refuse to?
Please remember that the different Provinces feel differently about certain things, too, but no, not in some cases. If you want to RP a Cleric that is publicly known as supporting the demon-worshipers of the Perverse, that character almost certainly isn't going to find advancement within the Cleric's Guild any longer.
>>I see the RP opportunities for what they're worth and would love to participate in them in time, but not if it requires me hitting circle 100/150 so that I'm not completely halting my character progression.
It's understandable that RPing a publicly-known supporter of something that is still very condemned by the vast majority of society would have significant societal (and associated mechanical) repercussions, and that those repercussions might be enough to make some folks not interested in that type of RP. These changes overall actually represent a better diversification of those repercussions, not an increase in them, but since a lot of players never RPed in this way before, they might not realize that at first glance. It's still absolutely fine for someone to consider the potential risks too much to want to RP this out, though! It's supposed to feel really meaningful as a RP choice.
-Persida
At the risk of going off-topic, in regards to something extreme like the aforementioned Cleric who publicly supports demon-worshipers, are there any plans for there being supernatural consequences along with the societal ones? I'm specifically thinking about things like loss of favors and devotion.
> The ability for non-Necros to declare their support for necromancy in any sort of public way isn't intended to be 'optimal' by any stretch of the term.
I think you misunderstand me. A character that supports necromancers can:
1.) Be public about it
2.) Keep it quiet (or lie)
If the benefits of both are the same, but the the former includes the consequences of being no longer able to circle or use banks, then the later is a weakly dominant strategy. Ideally there would be some benefit to the character for their choices (even if those benefits are secret), that make the choice an interesting one.
I think you misunderstand me. A character that supports necromancers can:
1.) Be public about it
2.) Keep it quiet (or lie)
If the benefits of both are the same, but the the former includes the consequences of being no longer able to circle or use banks, then the later is a weakly dominant strategy. Ideally there would be some benefit to the character for their choices (even if those benefits are secret), that make the choice an interesting one.
>>I think you misunderstand me.
Nope! You just are expressing a desire that is counter to the design of this system. The benefits are in the RP itself. This isn't a system that was made with the notion of attracting more players to wanting to play out this sort of RP by giving them other enticing benefits to do so. We realize that this means it won't appeal to a lot of players, and we're entirely okay with that.
-Persida
Nope! You just are expressing a desire that is counter to the design of this system. The benefits are in the RP itself. This isn't a system that was made with the notion of attracting more players to wanting to play out this sort of RP by giving them other enticing benefits to do so. We realize that this means it won't appeal to a lot of players, and we're entirely okay with that.
-Persida
>>At the risk of going off-topic, in regards to something extreme like the aforementioned Cleric who publicly supports demon-worshipers, are there any plans for there being supernatural consequences along with the societal ones? I'm specifically thinking about things like loss of favors and devotion.
Right now these situations are being addressed on a case by case basis. That's not to say a larger mechanic might not be developed even in the near future, but there's not one currently in development.
-Persida
Right now these situations are being addressed on a case by case basis. That's not to say a larger mechanic might not be developed even in the near future, but there's not one currently in development.
-Persida
I'm still seeing this as less of a 'public' declaration, and more a means of joining one of three secret clubs. Membership grants visibility of who else is in the secret club, and they can also see you, but currently, it seems like that's all membership is doing. Unless I'm not understanding the mechanical ramifications of declaring yourself a supporter of the Perverse - do NPCs know how one has declared? Guards and guild leaders?
Is there a timer on changing your declaration? What's stopping someone from saying "I support the Perverse" and running around town checking everyone, and then running back and declaring "I hate all Necromancers"? Does being in support of Philosophers or Perverse put one on the 'chance to successful accusation' timer that Necros are on while in justice zones?
Is this all PAFO?
While it's certainly your right to view the mechanic as you wish, bear in mind the Events Lead is telling you very clearly how it's going to be treated during GM events. Caveat fautor.
While we do have some plans for mechanical hooks to the system, they're still in concept stage and not being worked on currently. Right now it's a tool for RP, and this is in particular a kind of RP that needs to be carefully considered before jumping into. We expect that it's not going to be popular to publicly declare for Necromancy, and it shouldn't be, and honestly for all the press it's getting in this thread it's probably the most minor (albeit a cool) change we made with SO.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
While we do have some plans for mechanical hooks to the system, they're still in concept stage and not being worked on currently. Right now it's a tool for RP, and this is in particular a kind of RP that needs to be carefully considered before jumping into. We expect that it's not going to be popular to publicly declare for Necromancy, and it shouldn't be, and honestly for all the press it's getting in this thread it's probably the most minor (albeit a cool) change we made with SO.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Ok, noted, but I think there might be a general disconnect with what 'public declaration' means in this context. It appears that you guys are using the term 'public declaration' to mean 'known to NPCs, GMs, citizens of Elanthia, and anyone else who has declared the way you have', while us players are thinking of 'public declaration' to mean 'literally everyone', in the same way that if my character walks into a room, literally everyone knows what his name is. The decision to make the declaration NOT public to those who have not declared the way you have seems to be a limitation on the system and the opportunities it could afford therein, but I admit it's entirely possible I don't know all that's going on here or what you guys have planned.
>>while us players are thinking of 'public declaration' to mean 'literally everyone', in the same way that if my character walks into a room, literally everyone knows what his name is.
If you're really serious about it, then you DON'T know their name. There's quite a few folks who handle such very well. I imagine it takes quite a bit of highlights and whatnot to recall whom you've actually 'met' and whatnot, but folks DO IT already. The name being the point of interacting is a mechanical limitation of the game, NOT a reflection that we're all walking around with ghostly neon billboards blinking our name in time to the tune of the hamster dance.
Samsaren
If you're really serious about it, then you DON'T know their name. There's quite a few folks who handle such very well. I imagine it takes quite a bit of highlights and whatnot to recall whom you've actually 'met' and whatnot, but folks DO IT already. The name being the point of interacting is a mechanical limitation of the game, NOT a reflection that we're all walking around with ghostly neon billboards blinking our name in time to the tune of the hamster dance.
Samsaren
>>Ok, noted, but I think there might be a general disconnect with what 'public declaration' means in this context.
I addressed that in a previous post, but this thread has been moving quickly, so I'll re-paste that bit below:
>>Overall some of us Necromancers are just wondering how far this declaration actually extends IC from a social perspective, and want to make sure that a declaration from a game perspective isn't an overt open declaration that would formally out us.
Basically, nobody is required to set this flag at all right now, so if you choose to do so, please understand that it is more or less public knowledge and will almost certainly become known ICly in game far beyond just those PCs who can see your character's setting directly via JUSTICE. This isn't just a behind-the-scenes mechanical setting that everyone else is supposed to pretend they don't know about ICly. This is intended to be a setting that reflects what your character puts forth about themselves publicly, or at least publicly enough that others who share that ideology can easily recognize them at a glance. What those same-aligned characters choose to do with that information is entirely up to them.
**
So, to explain further -
* GMPNCs and NPCs aren't (usually) outright psychic, so no, they won't necessarily be able to tell what you've set your ideology/attitude to. However, some of them may have ways to detect such associations, or to have found out such things by other means, and will very much act accordingly.
* Like I mentioned in the quote above and in several of my other posts, you have to expect that other PCs will talk. If you set your ideology/attitude, you are making this stance publicly known to at least a chunk of strangers ICly. Those strangers might be moles, they might have a change of heart later, they might be total loons who just babble information to anyone who walks by them, etc. If you set your ideology/attitude, you're doing something that makes it way more likely that this stance of yours is going to be found out by the entire public at large, and you should be entirely prepared for that, because when it happens -- and I say 'when' and not 'if' because it almost certainly will -- it will be treated as IC knowledge.
These above two points are what I want everyone to understand, because they do have some legitimate potential downsides for your character, and some of those downsides can be really big things that some folks might not at all be okay with having to play through with.
If it sounds like I'm fearmongering when the system only outs your ideology/attitude to others who are similarly set, that's because I kind of am. I much rather scare people away from using what is currently a totally minor (but cool) and optional system than have a bunch of really upset players who don't understand why their character got banned from their guildhall, or why merchants won't work with them, or why the PVP encounter that they felt was unconsented is being ruled as consented, etc. Just because those are the only people who directly know from the system itself, doesn't mean that that information is going to stay only with those people. People talk. And that talking is considered an IC consequence of telling a bunch of strangers how you feel about something, even if you think they feel the same way.
>>The decision to make the declaration NOT public to those who have not declared the way you have seems to be a limitation on the system and the opportunities it could afford therein, but I admit it's entirely possible I don't know all that's going on here or what you guys have planned.
It's set up this way on purpose. It was not an oversight :) It will probably make more sense to some folks as things continue to roll out that tie into the ideology/attitude system, and as various events continue on.
-Persida
I addressed that in a previous post, but this thread has been moving quickly, so I'll re-paste that bit below:
>>Overall some of us Necromancers are just wondering how far this declaration actually extends IC from a social perspective, and want to make sure that a declaration from a game perspective isn't an overt open declaration that would formally out us.
Basically, nobody is required to set this flag at all right now, so if you choose to do so, please understand that it is more or less public knowledge and will almost certainly become known ICly in game far beyond just those PCs who can see your character's setting directly via JUSTICE. This isn't just a behind-the-scenes mechanical setting that everyone else is supposed to pretend they don't know about ICly. This is intended to be a setting that reflects what your character puts forth about themselves publicly, or at least publicly enough that others who share that ideology can easily recognize them at a glance. What those same-aligned characters choose to do with that information is entirely up to them.
**
So, to explain further -
* GMPNCs and NPCs aren't (usually) outright psychic, so no, they won't necessarily be able to tell what you've set your ideology/attitude to. However, some of them may have ways to detect such associations, or to have found out such things by other means, and will very much act accordingly.
* Like I mentioned in the quote above and in several of my other posts, you have to expect that other PCs will talk. If you set your ideology/attitude, you are making this stance publicly known to at least a chunk of strangers ICly. Those strangers might be moles, they might have a change of heart later, they might be total loons who just babble information to anyone who walks by them, etc. If you set your ideology/attitude, you're doing something that makes it way more likely that this stance of yours is going to be found out by the entire public at large, and you should be entirely prepared for that, because when it happens -- and I say 'when' and not 'if' because it almost certainly will -- it will be treated as IC knowledge.
These above two points are what I want everyone to understand, because they do have some legitimate potential downsides for your character, and some of those downsides can be really big things that some folks might not at all be okay with having to play through with.
If it sounds like I'm fearmongering when the system only outs your ideology/attitude to others who are similarly set, that's because I kind of am. I much rather scare people away from using what is currently a totally minor (but cool) and optional system than have a bunch of really upset players who don't understand why their character got banned from their guildhall, or why merchants won't work with them, or why the PVP encounter that they felt was unconsented is being ruled as consented, etc. Just because those are the only people who directly know from the system itself, doesn't mean that that information is going to stay only with those people. People talk. And that talking is considered an IC consequence of telling a bunch of strangers how you feel about something, even if you think they feel the same way.
>>The decision to make the declaration NOT public to those who have not declared the way you have seems to be a limitation on the system and the opportunities it could afford therein, but I admit it's entirely possible I don't know all that's going on here or what you guys have planned.
It's set up this way on purpose. It was not an oversight :) It will probably make more sense to some folks as things continue to roll out that tie into the ideology/attitude system, and as various events continue on.
-Persida
