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ReplyDunder hefansteorras wid cepanne,
Dunder sunne paere lyftte wid beseon,
Wid pu bide to ba yfluo.
Awa wid cepanne,
Awa wid beseon,
Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems
Okay, so I wanted to ask some rather basic questions here....
A) Is this a cipher of some sort? Or is it a matter of tying it into another language completely? I know for a fact it isn't a roman cipher (worked out all 52 possibilities by hand) but if it isn't the English we speak I could spend 1000+ hours on it and it wouldn't matter, which I'd prefer to avoid if that is possible.
B) If it IS a cipher does it tie to 100% modern english, no slang, broken speech, or anything that isn't in common use? Nouns being the exception of course.
Those two things I really do need to know to make any progress.
C) Are the spaces spaces? It flows like it is, but that could be misleading.
D) It's been stated this 'is' solvable but with a sample size this small anything more complex then a substitution cipher becomes awfully hard (neigh impossible). Its not an instance of multiplicative inverses under mod 26 (as 26 isn't prime and as such it doesn't form a group under multiplication (bonus points to anyone who gets what I mean by that)) or mod 27 (1^(-1) would be a or o depending on if space was 1 or a was, neither of which work). Is it something that (or more) complex? I know a small bit about crypto, mostly through number theory, but I know enough that what seems obvious to a creator can be hugely difficult for those on the outside simply because of the sheer number of ways it can be approached. The wall outside the CIA is a prime example. For instances here a 2 letter keyword cant be ruled out by the structure, but I would have to spend 100 hours trying all 650 possibilities.
and lastly E) Its been years, is it too soon to ask for a hint of some sort?
Tals player.
My own efforts to translate it determined that it is based on some kind of archaic Germanic language.
Here were my notes from looking stuff up in piles of online dictionaries, which suggests this:
wid -> we two (dual form) -- literally wit
yfluo -> yellow?
ciepan (Old English) -> trade in, buy, sell
bide -> pray?
weall (Old English): Wall
sunne Weak Feminine Noun
1. the sun 1a. epithets or metaphors applied to the sun 1b. forms used of the sun’s course þonne sunne on setle síe then the sun may be set 2. used in phrases expressing exposure to the sun’s heat or light e.g. in or out of the sun hé sæt út on sunnan he sat out in the sun 2a. in the phrase under ~an in this world compare sublunary híe geséon under sunnan they may provide in this world 3. used metaphorically
Old English wid Modern English odd
Old English beseon Modern English look absolute physical
Old English beseón Modern English strain upon sprinkle
lyftte: Swedish: raised
paere: utterly, completely (as adverb
beseon; (Old English) look, look up
Middle English: wallen:
Dunder: thunder? Dutch
I assume you are well aware that this is vaguely covered in Casler saga, and that there is a connection between this yellow-eyed creature, and something to do with the Reivers. I'm forgetting at the moment, bu anyway I think you know all that.
My main lamentation is that Casler has written that there is similar writing on top of the Stone Eye near an astrolab or a telescope or something, but I could never get there or find this in game. Another set of words might help a little here.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Here were my notes from looking stuff up in piles of online dictionaries, which suggests this:
wid -> we two (dual form) -- literally wit
yfluo -> yellow?
ciepan (Old English) -> trade in, buy, sell
bide -> pray?
weall (Old English): Wall
sunne Weak Feminine Noun
1. the sun 1a. epithets or metaphors applied to the sun 1b. forms used of the sun’s course þonne sunne on setle síe then the sun may be set 2. used in phrases expressing exposure to the sun’s heat or light e.g. in or out of the sun hé sæt út on sunnan he sat out in the sun 2a. in the phrase under ~an in this world compare sublunary híe geséon under sunnan they may provide in this world 3. used metaphorically
Old English wid Modern English odd
Old English beseon Modern English look absolute physical
Old English beseón Modern English strain upon sprinkle
lyftte: Swedish: raised
paere: utterly, completely (as adverb
beseon; (Old English) look, look up
Middle English: wallen:
Dunder: thunder? Dutch
I assume you are well aware that this is vaguely covered in Casler saga, and that there is a connection between this yellow-eyed creature, and something to do with the Reivers. I'm forgetting at the moment, bu anyway I think you know all that.
My main lamentation is that Casler has written that there is similar writing on top of the Stone Eye near an astrolab or a telescope or something, but I could never get there or find this in game. Another set of words might help a little here.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
PS: This is one of those cases where I explicitly lament that the GS gamefeed is ASCII and not UTF-8. I have a very strong suspicion that some of these characters are meant to be other characters (with accents, or deprecated letters, or who knows). That certainly complicates life, whether it is true or because I suspect it, take your pick.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
<<<PS: This is one of those cases where I explicitly lament that the GS gamefeed is ASCII and not UTF-8. I have a very strong suspicion that some of these characters are meant to be other characters (with accents, or deprecated letters, or who knows). That certainly complicates life, whether it is true or because I suspect it, take your pick.>>>
It certainly looks a lot like Old English. Could be that some P's are actually thorn symbols.
I looked up some of the words in OE, maybe these will help--
cepan = to observe, to await
beseon = to look
aefensteorra = the evening star
sunne = sun
lyft = sky
awa = always
It certainly looks a lot like Old English. Could be that some P's are actually thorn symbols.
I looked up some of the words in OE, maybe these will help--
cepan = to observe, to await
beseon = to look
aefensteorra = the evening star
sunne = sun
lyft = sky
awa = always
I'm mostly trying to approach it as a substitution cipher of some kind because that's a side of things I have some strength with, on top of that anyone can sit down with a pen and paper and work through ciphers. If it is Old English.... linguistics is a field I have nothing to contribute and I actually feel it would be somewhat against the spirit of things if 'it can be solved' required a masters degree in that field.
Are you down in RR at the moment? I should of copied the text from sitting in the chair as well as the room while I was down there, but didn't cause I didn't expect this to turn into something tugging at me for this long.
Also, who is that quote from?
Tal.
Are you down in RR at the moment? I should of copied the text from sitting in the chair as well as the room while I was down there, but didn't cause I didn't expect this to turn into something tugging at me for this long.
Also, who is that quote from?
Tal.
<pas = pæþ meaning path (ae ligature, thorn)
weallems maybe some connection to weallen, to spring forth/flow?>
I feel like a reference to "weall" (wall) makes more sense in context, especially if "na pas" mean something like "not pass". This is what I have so far on a guess:
Dunder hefansteorras wid cepanne,
? evening-star we await
Dunder sunne paere lyftte wid beseon,
? sun ? sky we watch
Wid pu bide to ba yfluo.
we ? pray ? ? evil
Awa wid cepanne,
always we await
Awa wid beseon,
always we watch
Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems
? deep-water ? ? not pass wall
weallems maybe some connection to weallen, to spring forth/flow?>
I feel like a reference to "weall" (wall) makes more sense in context, especially if "na pas" mean something like "not pass". This is what I have so far on a guess:
Dunder hefansteorras wid cepanne,
? evening-star we await
Dunder sunne paere lyftte wid beseon,
? sun ? sky we watch
Wid pu bide to ba yfluo.
we ? pray ? ? evil
Awa wid cepanne,
always we await
Awa wid beseon,
always we watch
Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems
? deep-water ? ? not pass wall
You folks are getting very close.
Since you're so close and it's been about seven years since it was released here's some major hintage:
1) I knew that Gemstone players had a higher likelihood than your average Joe of recognizing a language no longer in use.
2) I totally used an online dictionary and the grammar is probably more in line with modern english.
3) Just to avoid it being a simple cut and paste translation, I might have tweaked words here and there, adding a letter, subtracting a letter, so if a word doesn't translate perfectly, it might require looking at the word and asking yourself, for example, "Does it make more sense if I remove one of these letters?"
4)This translation is accurate:
"Awa wid cepanne,
always we await
Awa wid beseon,
always we watch
5) Concerning this translation (see (3) and it's very close to being completely translated:
Dunder hefansteorras wid cepanne,
? evening-star we await
Dunder sunne paere lyftte wid beseon,
? sun ? sky we watch
Yeah, I know this process, almost entirely void of logical code breaking was mean. I TOTALLY KNOW IT. :D
GM Scribes
Since you're so close and it's been about seven years since it was released here's some major hintage:
1) I knew that Gemstone players had a higher likelihood than your average Joe of recognizing a language no longer in use.
2) I totally used an online dictionary and the grammar is probably more in line with modern english.
3) Just to avoid it being a simple cut and paste translation, I might have tweaked words here and there, adding a letter, subtracting a letter, so if a word doesn't translate perfectly, it might require looking at the word and asking yourself, for example, "Does it make more sense if I remove one of these letters?"
4)This translation is accurate:
"Awa wid cepanne,
always we await
Awa wid beseon,
always we watch
5) Concerning this translation (see (3) and it's very close to being completely translated:
Dunder hefansteorras wid cepanne,
? evening-star we await
Dunder sunne paere lyftte wid beseon,
? sun ? sky we watch
Yeah, I know this process, almost entirely void of logical code breaking was mean. I TOTALLY KNOW IT. :D
GM Scribes
P.S.
As mentioned above, Casler did write about discovering the same language on the Stone Eye (but in an area not currently accessible to players - okay, it exists only in the written word) and his history of the town mentions the people who built the winged chair. Lastly, also correctly, the Reiver document also connects to those same events (albeit, briefly).
GM Scribes
As mentioned above, Casler did write about discovering the same language on the Stone Eye (but in an area not currently accessible to players - okay, it exists only in the written word) and his history of the town mentions the people who built the winged chair. Lastly, also correctly, the Reiver document also connects to those same events (albeit, briefly).
GM Scribes
>Dunder sunne paere lyftte wid beseon,
>? sun ? sky we watch
Here was the only sentence I also made any headway with.
Attempt A was missing a word and a word-for-word attempt: (Thunder?) sun complete raised with looking
Attempt B was trying to make a more grammatical statement in English: Looking on the complete sun rise
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
>? sun ? sky we watch
Here was the only sentence I also made any headway with.
Attempt A was missing a word and a word-for-word attempt: (Thunder?) sun complete raised with looking
Attempt B was trying to make a more grammatical statement in English: Looking on the complete sun rise
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Some other possible matches, switching p/thorn and dropping or swapping some letters:
dunder < under 'under'
paere < þǽr 'therein'
pu < þu 'you'
to < tó 'so as to'
ba < ban 'command, interdict'
pau < þá 'when, then'
depas < deáþ 'death'
hiet < hit 'it'
sie < sié 'to be'
na < ná 'not'
pas < þás 'this'
The last line still needs a conclusion to tie it together. We've had suggestions for the final word ('wall', 'wellspring'), and there's other options in wælhlem 'onslaught' or in general words derived from wæl- 'the dead', but knowing who wrote the inscription may help.
dunder < under 'under'
paere < þǽr 'therein'
pu < þu 'you'
to < tó 'so as to'
ba < ban 'command, interdict'
pau < þá 'when, then'
depas < deáþ 'death'
hiet < hit 'it'
sie < sié 'to be'
na < ná 'not'
pas < þás 'this'
The last line still needs a conclusion to tie it together. We've had suggestions for the final word ('wall', 'wellspring'), and there's other options in wælhlem 'onslaught' or in general words derived from wæl- 'the dead', but knowing who wrote the inscription may help.
<<and ... is hter not writing in an area of the graveyard that remains untranslated? on a slab or something?>> - CLUNK
It was something like.. "Dha baes'irin ta geilach i shiath ta sidar ~ Oraesh'lan'dha ta geilach ~ Oraesh'lan da Gosaena"... I know that isn't quite right, but it was fifteen years ago, and there are Grimswarm all over the place right now.
The same language was used by the archmages when they made the world stop spinning in the Vishmiir storyline, so I assume there was a glossary somewhere that as far as I know we never saw. I hacked away at it with no luck at the time because there was seemingly no way to crack it.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
It was something like.. "Dha baes'irin ta geilach i shiath ta sidar ~ Oraesh'lan'dha ta geilach ~ Oraesh'lan da Gosaena"... I know that isn't quite right, but it was fifteen years ago, and there are Grimswarm all over the place right now.
The same language was used by the archmages when they made the world stop spinning in the Vishmiir storyline, so I assume there was a glossary somewhere that as far as I know we never saw. I hacked away at it with no luck at the time because there was seemingly no way to crack it.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
Making an attempt...
Beneath the evening star, we wait
Beneath the 'noon' sun, we watch --- (translating noon sun from a sun high in the sky)
While you remain with the evil ones
Always we wait
Always we watch
The deep sea cannot hide the wanderers from our sight (???)
For the last line, Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems, working with:
þæs déopes - The deep sea
hilest – hides
síen - power of seeing /power of sight/ sight /vision
Old English ne Modern English not
pa= the/that/those
weallian - to go abroad travel wander go as pilgrim
Beneath the evening star, we wait
Beneath the 'noon' sun, we watch --- (translating noon sun from a sun high in the sky)
While you remain with the evil ones
Always we wait
Always we watch
The deep sea cannot hide the wanderers from our sight (???)
For the last line, Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems, working with:
þæs déopes - The deep sea
hilest – hides
síen - power of seeing /power of sight/ sight /vision
Old English ne Modern English not
pa= the/that/those
weallian - to go abroad travel wander go as pilgrim
Just curious as I have zero connection to the Casler storyline-- is this language, IC, supposed to be the elder Kannalar tongue mentioned in the Turamzzyrian timeline documentation? I've often pondered how much this old (mostly lost, I'm guessing) language would be remembered and used in today's Empire.
/seo, wheels and skulls department/
/seo, wheels and skulls department/
Excellent question!
When I was human and Rest guru, I did envisioned this language as being the older Kannalan dialect and used it appropriately to identify objects or places or events to that time period. There are parts of the Empire today that were never 100% culturally conquered by the Turamzzyrian Empire, so to speak, but were absorbed with much of their Kannalan era identity still intact. That identity has definitely decayed since being absorbed, but there could definitely be scholars who recognize the language and would probably be a much better translator than Casler (educated, but not THAT educated).
Of note, Casler wrote about discovering the same language as on the chair also on the Stone Eye, but it wasn't related to the events of the Casler Huntington Saga.
In a Giantman doc I'm working on, I do plan to provide more info about the Kannalan Empire. :D
GM Scribes
When I was human and Rest guru, I did envisioned this language as being the older Kannalan dialect and used it appropriately to identify objects or places or events to that time period. There are parts of the Empire today that were never 100% culturally conquered by the Turamzzyrian Empire, so to speak, but were absorbed with much of their Kannalan era identity still intact. That identity has definitely decayed since being absorbed, but there could definitely be scholars who recognize the language and would probably be a much better translator than Casler (educated, but not THAT educated).
Of note, Casler wrote about discovering the same language as on the chair also on the Stone Eye, but it wasn't related to the events of the Casler Huntington Saga.
In a Giantman doc I'm working on, I do plan to provide more info about the Kannalan Empire. :D
GM Scribes
Another attempt oh diabolical one!!!
Always we wait
Always we watch
While the deep sea hides the wanderers from our sight
For the last line, Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems, working with:
þa/ þá /þý - while/when
déopes - deep sea
hilest – hides
síen - power of seeing /power of sight/ sight /vision
Old English ne Modern English not
pa= the/that/those
weallian - to go abroad travel wander go as pilgrim
Always we wait
Always we watch
While the deep sea hides the wanderers from our sight
For the last line, Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems, working with:
þa/ þá /þý - while/when
déopes - deep sea
hilest – hides
síen - power of seeing /power of sight/ sight /vision
Old English ne Modern English not
pa= the/that/those
weallian - to go abroad travel wander go as pilgrim
The sentences should be grammatically correct, not in the sense of having OE declensions but when we translate them they should all have clear subject/verb phrases. They would also have to make sense as a part of the history of Marsh Keep, which I'm not familiar with but might have something to do with necromancy.
3. Wid pu bide to ba yfluo
We to-you pray to banish evil
ba -- OE bannan, 'to summon/command, to prohibit/curse'
The fact that it could mean either 'summon' or 'banish' may be an intentional ambiguity, but I think it is the latter since the prior invocations of the evening star and the sun are of typically positive symbols.
6. Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems
Pau -- þá 'when', and I think it is specifically in the sense of '(we wait) for the time when...' so that it forms a parallel with the first three lines, describing an event which has not yet come to pass.
depas -- could be from deóp 'the deep', or if using a thorn instead of p, deáþ 'death'. The latter seems slightly more likely in context but I'm not too sure.
hiet -- I'm inclined to think this is a simple third-person pronoun instead of something more substantial.
sie -- sie is the OE subjunctive form of 'to be' which would match the mood of the clause. If so, then it is the main verb of the clause.
na -- 'not'.
pas -- þás 'this'
So perhaps, "for when death it is not this [weallems]", where the final word is a noun.
3. Wid pu bide to ba yfluo
We to-you pray to banish evil
ba -- OE bannan, 'to summon/command, to prohibit/curse'
The fact that it could mean either 'summon' or 'banish' may be an intentional ambiguity, but I think it is the latter since the prior invocations of the evening star and the sun are of typically positive symbols.
6. Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems
Pau -- þá 'when', and I think it is specifically in the sense of '(we wait) for the time when...' so that it forms a parallel with the first three lines, describing an event which has not yet come to pass.
depas -- could be from deóp 'the deep', or if using a thorn instead of p, deáþ 'death'. The latter seems slightly more likely in context but I'm not too sure.
hiet -- I'm inclined to think this is a simple third-person pronoun instead of something more substantial.
sie -- sie is the OE subjunctive form of 'to be' which would match the mood of the clause. If so, then it is the main verb of the clause.
na -- 'not'.
pas -- þás 'this'
So perhaps, "for when death it is not this [weallems]", where the final word is a noun.
>So perhaps, "for when death it is not this [weallems]", where the final word is a noun.
cwealm - death murder slaughter torment pain plague pestilence ((the/that þæs) cwealmes)
>Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems
That death will not be this torment
So... working with what has been suggested, and refined, I submit the following:
Under the evening star, we wait
Under the shining sun, we watch
We to-you pray to banish evil
Always we wait
Always we watch
That death will not be this torment
All I can say is that this more closely fits the visions. So let's keep translating!
cwealm - death murder slaughter torment pain plague pestilence ((the/that þæs) cwealmes)
>Pau depas hiet sie na pas weallems
That death will not be this torment
So... working with what has been suggested, and refined, I submit the following:
Under the evening star, we wait
Under the shining sun, we watch
We to-you pray to banish evil
Always we wait
Always we watch
That death will not be this torment
All I can say is that this more closely fits the visions. So let's keep translating!
Oh and a complete guess I'll throw out there With no thought behind it from just looking at what's out there now.
We shall pray to banish evil
We will fight to banish evil
We will unite to banish evil (or vanquish)
That death will not be this journey
That death will not be our end
Complete guesses...
>>Kayse needs to come live in Icemule so she can pick our boxes!<<
Boo! Icemule! NEVER!
~Kayse
P.S-Can't you pick your own boxes?
P.P.S-I need more acid vials. :) <3
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Riend, "What's the verb for glancing at someone and exhaling?"
(OOC) Farain's player whispers, "I think its kiss farain."
Boo! Icemule! NEVER!
~Kayse
P.S-Can't you pick your own boxes?
P.P.S-I need more acid vials. :) <3
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Riend, "What's the verb for glancing at someone and exhaling?"
(OOC) Farain's player whispers, "I think its kiss farain."
<<Oh and a complete guess I'll throw out there With no thought behind it from just looking at what's out there now.
We shall pray to banish evil
We will fight to banish evil
We will unite to banish evil (or vanquish)
That death will not be this journey
That death will not be our end>>
Not sure if you got it, but I like that.
We shall pray to banish evil
We will fight to banish evil
We will unite to banish evil (or vanquish)
That death will not be this journey
That death will not be our end>>
Not sure if you got it, but I like that.
>>Value when I sold them in Mule was 72k, so... yeah... that's what I owe you.<<
Eh, not too worried about it. Whenever our paths cross again, or heck keep it for a tip :P
~Kayse
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Riend, "What's the verb for glancing at someone and exhaling?"
(OOC) Farain's player whispers, "I think its kiss farain."
Eh, not too worried about it. Whenever our paths cross again, or heck keep it for a tip :P
~Kayse
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Riend, "What's the verb for glancing at someone and exhaling?"
(OOC) Farain's player whispers, "I think its kiss farain."
>>Someone dropped all his picking skills and is now learning what it's like to live like the rest of us. Poor thing....<<
Awww, if you want boxes opened, come to River's Rest. :) Can't even do ANYTHING the last two nights but open boxes for people.
RLEN WHERE THE HECK ARE YOU?
~Kayse
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Riend, "What's the verb for glancing at someone and exhaling?"
(OOC) Farain's player whispers, "I think its kiss farain."
Awww, if you want boxes opened, come to River's Rest. :) Can't even do ANYTHING the last two nights but open boxes for people.
RLEN WHERE THE HECK ARE YOU?
~Kayse
(OOC) You quietly whisper to Riend, "What's the verb for glancing at someone and exhaling?"
(OOC) Farain's player whispers, "I think its kiss farain."
Feel like we're just chasing around in circles now.
How's this tweak?
Under the evening star, we wait
Under the shining sun, we watch
While you remain to banish evil
Always we wait
Always we watch
May our death not be this torment
where "ba" in line 3 is a form of béodan = to command decree summon banish
