Does the TARGET verb and a fully targeted spell provide any % bonus to skill similar to how AIM and a fully aimed shot provides a 130% bonus to skill?

For comparison's sake, assuming someone has equal ranks in Targeted Magic and Longbow, how will a max prepped(capped) fully targeted spell compare to a fully aimed player-crafted longbow with capped ammo?

Will using a foci in the new system give us that % bonus? I'd love to be able to make complex gestures(Roundtime) with a foci while under a defensive penalty if it will let me get up to that 130% similar to AIM.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

>Does the TARGET verb and a fully targeted spell provide any % bonus to skill similar to how AIM and a fully aimed shot provides a 130% bonus to skill?

Yes.

>For comparison's sake, assuming someone has equal ranks in Targeted Magic and Longbow, how will a max prepped(capped) fully targeted spell compare to a fully aimed player-crafted longbow with capped ammo?

I don't think it's an easy comparison. Right now it depends a lot on the specific spell and the resistances of the target.

---

Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

[Reply]

>>Does the TARGET verb and a fully targeted spell provide any % bonus? Yes.

Do you know if it's 130% like AIM, or is it less?

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

>Do you know if it's 130% like AIM, or is it less?

I don't have any actual data, but I'd suspect they were of comparable levels.

---

Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

[Reply]

>Do you know if it's 130% like AIM, or is it less?

As someone who uses both, and with targeted substantially above my longbow, I feel like it's less for most/all spells, though it could just be the damage giving me that impression. Even short more than a hundred ranks, I feel more confident in getting a 1-hit with my longbow than with magic unless there's an opposing tailwind up. That could be other things unrelated to the aim bonus, though, so it's entirely possible they're the same. The havoc I can wreak with a longbow is frankly pretty obscene, and feels broken.

[Reply]

At the risk of getting lynched, I don't see anything wrong with bows and crossbows outdamaging TM, which requires overall less time to use and can come with useful secondary effects.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

[Reply]

I find it mildly dissatisfying that an arrow does more damage than a concussive fireball especially from a thematic point of view, but meh.

IMO targeting a spell should be even more mentally occupying than aiming a bow, should deplete you both physically and mentally if you're doing it with your utmost effort, and the damage yield should reflect all of this.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

>>I find it mildly dissatisfying that an arrow does more damage than a concussive fireball especially from a thematic point of view, but meh.

"It's almost like the universe is trying to deliberately force some form of arbitrary equality between those of us who can reshape matter with our thoughts and those who cannot." -- Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

[Reply]

No doubt that equality(read: game balance) needs to exist between weapon skills. I just wish things were the other way so that magic was the heavy hitter instead, that's all.

Not even going to go through the exercise of guessing at what it would take for something like that to happen though :P

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

>>No doubt that equality(read: game balance) needs to exist between weapon skills. I just wish things were the other way so that magic was the heavy hitter instead, that's all.

If you want to volunteer to make shield unusable while you are prepping and targeting to apply an evasion penalty, I'm all for it :-D

[Reply]

Actually now that I think about it, the main reason offensive magic is so much more powerful in other games is because mana doesn't regenerate, or if it does it does so very slowly to the point that you probably need to invest in mana potions(which are typically very expensive).

Also in other games buffs may last for much shorter periods of time so all of a sudden you're having to balance your mana expenditure for buffing, debuffing and attack magic. In DR mana becomes almost a non-issue once you get to mid-level.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

>>If you want to volunteer to make shield unusable while you are prepping and targeting to apply an evasion penalty, I'm all for it :-D

If that form of targeted magic spellcasting existed I would use it. Some form of advance targetting that required all of your attention so you couldn't attack, use shield or do anything else that takes your focus away.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

While I don't have a conceptual problem with making TM the bazooka and mundane combat the quicker one, this is one of those cases where I don't think you actually want what you say you want. That'd be a massive change in how TM is used that I'd guess many people would consider unplayable. Playing both sides (having a 'target lite' and a 'target heavy') wouldn't be fair.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

[Reply]

>>Actually now that I think about it, the main reason offensive magic is so much more powerful in other games is because mana doesn't regenerate, or if it does it does so very slowly to the point that you probably need to invest in mana potions(which are typically very expensive).
>>Also in other games buffs may last for much shorter periods of time so all of a sudden you're having to balance your mana expenditure for buffing, debuffing and attack magic. In DR mana becomes almost a non-issue once you get to mid-level.

There are lots of differences. The mana, as you mentioned. There tends to be many restrictions on spellcasting classes which aren't present in DR (only cloth armor, no shield, can't use standard weapons well, etc). All the games with universe-ripping offensive magic (Dragon Age and earlier versions of D&D come to mind) also have the prototypical glass cannon mage, can only use X number of spells per encounter/per day/whatever.

[Reply]

I don't either, I just wish it was as accurate.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga

[Reply]

>>While I don't have a conceptual problem with making TM the bazooka and mundane combat the quicker one, this is one of those cases where I don't think you actually want what you say you want. That'd be a massive change in how TM is used that I'd guess many people would consider unplayable. Playing both sides (having a 'target lite' and a 'target heavy') wouldn't be fair.

This pretty much. A magic primary has the equivalent of 3-4 mundane weapons at his disposal, depending on which spell he chooses.

[Reply]

I guess my main problem is that at ~1000 ranks in TM I still plink on people with Strange Arrow who I imagine I'd absolutely decimate if I had the equivalent ranks in a bow skill. Like, I don't even think TM and bows are in the same league in terms of accuracy/firepower unless you have access to a DFA.

That's my only beef, and I'm hoping the new breath of storms spell in the bard spellbook addresses this huge effectiveness discrepancy that I am perceiving.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

>>At the risk of getting lynched, I don't see anything wrong with bows and crossbows outdamaging TM, which requires overall less time to use and can come with useful secondary effects.

My problem is not with bows and crossbows outdamaging TM. My problem is with bows and crossbows doing ridiculous amounts of damage very easily. I don't want TM damage capability brought up, I want both brought down, at least to the level of melee (which feels like the weakest of the three, and that's also a problem IMO). But I think all this is supposed to all get fixed in 3.0, so I can wait.

[Reply]

>If you want to volunteer to make shield unusable while you are prepping and targeting to apply an evasion penalty, I'm all for it :-D

At the risk of being nitpicky, it should be noted that AIM no longer applies an evasion penalty, and has not for quite some time.

---

Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

[Reply]

>>At the risk of being nitpicky, it should be noted that AIM no longer applies an evasion penalty, and has not for quite some time.

Yes, but casting clearly should.

[Reply]

>>I guess my main problem is that at ~1000 ranks in TM I still plink on people with Strange Arrow who I imagine I'd absolutely decimate if I had the equivalent ranks in a bow skill.

At the same time, if you have ~1000 ranks in HX but you're using a bolt that does no/no/low damage, you might not see that much output, either.

[Reply]

>>bolt that does no/no/low

A capped strange arrow does low damage?

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

STRA is currently on the lower end of normal. Moving to the new TM templates, it's flat out getting a buff. And before you ask, this also means that Breath of Storms will have more base damage than you're used to if you're using STRA as your comparison point.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

[Reply]

Sweet! Yeah, I've only ever used Strange Arrow for all of my targeted magic training and damage comparisons.

I suppose I might should probably invest in a Fireball scroll for PvP nights. Hmm...

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

> STRA is currently on the lower end of normal.

Is the new TM system going to have variation like this, where some things are on the low side, and some on the high side? Or will there be a single value that all spells are pegged to? (This ignores multi-shot spells, which I understand trade damage for accuracy.)

[Reply]

>>Is the new TM system going to have variation like this, where some things are on the low side, and some on the high side? Or will there be a single value that all spells are pegged to? (This ignores multi-shot spells, which I understand trade damage for accuracy.)

There isn't only one single template, but no template is supposed to be actually better or worse than the other. A few spells might break template if there's an excellent reason (TKT comes to mind), but it's not meant to be common.

The TM templates are also damage-type agnostic, so it isn't a case of having a single Fire Spell template that everything that a spell must possess if it will set something on fire. Instead it's more like "Here is the template for a single-element spell that's supposed to do a bit of physical damage incidentally."

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

[Reply]

That is very re-assuring :)

Thanks for the info!

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

[Reply]

>There isn't only one single template, but no template is supposed to be actually better or worse than the other. A few spells might break template if there's an excellent reason (TKT comes to mind)...

Just curious as to why TKT might break the template? Is it because it's damage could be variable based on ammo chosen?

[Reply]

>>Just curious as to why TKT might break the template? Is it because it's damage could be variable based on ammo chosen?

Yeah. It hasn't been converted it yet (one of the last TM spells to finish) because it's Weird. I don't know if I'm going to keep and tweak the way it handles variable damage now, or abstract it into the templates.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

[Reply]